AdmFirmusPiett

[0059217][1.69.2.87] G4M1 3D Model Errors

32 posts in this topic

Hi,

This was originally posted in the Suggestions sub-form, but I was directed to re-post here.

The G4M, as the mainstay land-based attack aircraft of the Imperial Japanese Navy Air Service, was the most common Japanese bomber of the Second World War. The game currently only includes the G4M1, though exactly what model is left vague. Since it has the propeller spinners and the revised tail gunner's position I assume it is a late production Model 11. Possibly. At any rate, this extremely important aircraft is currently using one of the oldest 3D models in the game. The bomb bay is incorrectly modeled, as is the tail gunner's position, the waist blisters are missing several details, the 7.7mm flexible mounts are extremely low quality, the rubber lining underneath the wing fuel tanks is missing (if this is indeed a late production model 11, as it appears to be), most of the aircraft interior is not modeled at all (just ugly low res grey "walls" instead of most interior spaces), and the overall appearance of the aircraft is heavily dated. I humbly request that this historically important and (IMO) beautiful aircraft get prioritized for a new HD model in order to fix the numerous historical inaccuracies that have stemmed from the extreme age of the current model.


Tail Gunner's Position

Spoiler

Here is the proper revised tail gunner's position. Note the slit on the top of the position. This is absent on the in-game G4M1.
air_g4m_12.jpg

(http://ww2db.com/image.php?image_id=13955)

 

Written source on redesigned 20mm tail gunner's position in late production G4M1s. Also note the addition of spinners, which indicates the in-game G4M1 is late production.
jOGdKXT.jpg

 



Waist Blisters

Spoiler

Below you can see a blister mount for the 7.7mm. The mount itself is entirely absent from the current in-game model, with the low res 7.7mm just floating in mid-air.
air_g4m_49.jpg
(http://ww2db.com/image.php?image_id=18598)

Another example of the correct 7.7mm waist blister absent on the in-game 3D model.
4hJX3CY.jpg



Bomb Bay

Spoiler

Note how shallow the bomb bays on these G4M1s are. Their payload's are clearly visible from the side.
air_g4m_30.jpg

(http://ww2db.com/image.php?image_id=14026)

Another photo.
air_g4m_27.jpg

(http://ww2db.com/image.php?image_id=13984)

 

Another image showing the bomb bay.
exPt1u2.jpg

 


Rubber Ply under Wings (Keep in mind, this is only regarding the 3D model. Any performance related concerns would of course be a separate issue.)

Spoiler

Rubber ply under wing of late production (in this source incorrectly called a "model 12") G4M1. Also note the mention of the redesigned tail gunner's position, indicating that the in-game G4M1 is indeed a late production version.
ROR7dVu.jpg

Another source on rubber ply under wings.
UnDrORQ.jpg


Sources (Covers Attached):
Francillon, Rene J. Japanese Aircraft of the Pacific War. 2nd ed. London: Putnam Aeronautical Books, 1979. (Page number included in image, but it is 382.)
ISBN: 0 85177 801 1

Tagaya Osamu. Mitsubishi Type 1 Rikko 'Betty' Units of World War 2. Oxford: Osprey Publishing, 2001. Kindle Edition. (Kindle locations included in the images.)
ePub e-book ISBN: 978 1 47280 050 3
 

All photographs are in the public domain. According to article 23 of Japan's old copyright law and article 2 of supplemental provision of copyright law of Japan, photographs taken prior to 1946 or published prior to 31 Dec 1956 are now in the public domain.

Thank you for reviewing my bug report.

Regards,
Firmus Piett, Adm.

Francillon Cover.pdf

Tagaya Cover.jpg

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Thank you for your effort in improvming the game.

 

Can you post images of game G4M and point out the issues?  

Used to compare game with images.

Additional photos of actual aircraft will help as well, more images, better to improve model.

 

Will have more questions I am sure.

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G4M1 got its bomb bay door removed a few month ago IG, based on a BR concluding the same thing

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Posted (edited)

47 minutes ago, Rapitor said:

G4M1 got its bomb bay door removed a few month ago IG, based on a BR concluding the same thing


You are correct. The main issue is that the current G4M1 model is so ancient that really all removing the bomb bay doors did was make an inaccurate (and old) model slightly less inaccurate. I'm requesting that the G4M1 be fully remodeled to correct many of the missing details due to the model's advanced age. For example, the current bomb bay is mostly incorrect. My understanding is that the bomb bay actually had two different states (There was a torpedo and dumb bomb configuration, though I could be incorrect. I'm currently doing more research to see if I can find out.). The in-game representation doesn't accurately portray either. It isn't open enough for the dumb bomb configuration (As seen in the above photos, where the payloads are clearly visible. This is not possible due to the depth of the in-game version's bomb bay), and is not enclosed enough for the torpedo configuration (Again as shown in some of the above images, you can actually see the partially enclosed torpedo config on the cover image of the Osprey book.). I'm away from the game at the moment, but I will take some screenshots when I get home. If a new 3D model is out of the question, though I really don't know why it would be since the G4M1 model in game is worse than most of the ones that have seen updates, then at the very least new Type 92 flexible mount models could be inserted (in the same manner that was done to the Ki-49 flexible mounts). The current ones are horrifically low res. Of course this is beside the other issues, like missing waist blister details, the slightly incorrect tail gunner's position, and the missing rubber sheeting underneath the wing tanks.

Edit: After a bit more research, I'm starting to think the reason the bombs appear lower in photographs than in game is because none of the gear holding the bombs in place are present on the in-game model, so the bombs themselves are just floating up inside the space instead of being suspended lower down.

Edited by AdmFirmusPiett
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Posted (edited)

Okay, so the more I look into things the more I see that it is a model fidelity issue more than anything to do with an error in the research. Anyway, here are some additional sources.

 

This video has some nice interior shots. At 0:45 there is a nice panning shot of the late production tail gunner's position. Note the large notch that is missing from the in-game version. You can compare that and the image in the OP to the G4M1's tail in-game.

5951bcf2e23b2_G4M1Tail.thumb.jpg.4f107f6

 

A nice shot of the bomb bay configured for dumb-bombs. You can see how in reality the bombs would be positioned lower in the aircraft, allowing them to be seen from the side on occasion in a way not possible in game due to the lack of modelling inside the bomb bay.

Here you can compare to the images in the OP. This seems to be a pure fidelity issue, as the mounting looks nothing like that, and the Type 92 as a whole is one step above a black rectangle.

5951bdab0b857_G4MBlister.jpg.02326a5a356

The dorsal mount isn't accurate either. Again, this has more to do with a lack of fidelity.
5951c15f01a43_Screenshot2017-06-2620_16_
20170626202242_1.jpg.6268c87aefd6c5569b9

Edited by AdmFirmusPiett
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:good:

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Here is another video with lots of good footage. A few highlights:
2:05: A view of dumb bomb configuration from the ground. Note how the bombs are clearly visible.
14:27: Another nice view of the dorsal 7.7mm position.
16:07: A nice interior shot from just aft of the waist blisters, looking toward the cockpit.
16:28: Video of the tail gunner's position. This is likely where the shot of the same position in the OP came from. Again note the slit on top that is absent from the in-game rendition.

 

Pony51 (Posted )

I can enter report on the notched tail, however the other model error details need a better defined point by point list,
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Is there info that details the arc of the rear gun?

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13 minutes ago, Pony51 said:

Is there info that details the arc of the rear gun?

 

Nothing specific that I have seen in English unfortunately. The current arc in game feels about right. I guess theoretically he could point the Type 99 Mk 1 up into the notch to fire on a target high on a very limited arc, but I don't have any source to back that claim up.
 

At 22:18 you can see what appears to be the maximum upward arc on the gun mount. This specific example is on a further revised tail section (reduced ribbing, and V-shaped), but the mounting for the 20mm itself is identical between the models. You could see how the notch could allow the 20mm to aim a bit higher on a limited arc. That is the best I can provide unfortunately.

Another nice shot of a G4M1 tail.
 

Spoiler

post-787-1419683266015_zpsagvjensy.jpeg

 

Bomb Bay
The bomb bay in game doesn't have any of the gear holding the bombs in place present. As a result, the bombs are just floating up inside the bomb bay too deep inside (not to mention looking very ugly). This wouldn't be the biggest issue on a bomber with bomb bay doors (out of sight, out of mind), but you spend a lot of time starring at those floating bombs with the G4M1.

5952cf6d3a6f4_G4M1BombBay2.jpg.0318458ef

 

Stills of the bomb bay from the video linked earlier in the thread. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-5MSqrK5Tbo

 

Spoiler

5952d07725046_G4M1BombBayReal2.thumb.jpg5952d079f2233_G4M1BombBayReal3.thumb.jpg5952d07ba3ca0_G4M1BombBayReal.thumb.jpg.


The result of the lack of modelling:
 

Spoiler

5952d14f664a2_G4M1BombBay.thumb.jpg.7ab4

Compared to:
exPt1u2.jpg
5952d20561e89_G4M1withbombsinbay.jpg.159


Screenshot from https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6gYkI_x1F68
5952d32c0dc37_G4M1withBombsReal.jpg.5951

 


Type 92 7.7mm Positions
This is really just a fidelity issue. Look at how awful those look. The waist blister mounts are literally floating in mid-air. The Type 92 model is in dire need of an update. This was actually done to the Type 99 Mk 1 mount several patches ago, but for some reason the Type 92s weren't updated. It isn't so much that the blister mounts are wrong in game, as it is that they literally do not exist.

5952d38ccd70d_G4M1Blister.jpg.1d314d72d75952d38f2bf20_G4M1Dorsal.jpg.1f9f61db3395952d38fc7473_G4M1Nose.jpg.be4533602f6bf
 

Spoiler

4hJX3CY.jpg
air_g4m_49.jpg


Rubber Ply under Wing Tanks
This one is tricky as there is only written sources talking about it, and a handful of drawings. I found one photo that I'm 90% sure is showing the rubber ply clearly. The written sources are in the OP.
5952d7c7a7ba4_WingTanks.thumb.jpg.6f37fe

Here is what late production G4M1 Model 11s should have under each wing:

Spoiler

5952d69357c13_RubberUnderWing.jpg.a8409f
The top is an early production, without rubber, and the bottom is later production.
5952d767f198b_RubberMaybe.jpg.cbb0203435

 

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6 hours ago, AdmFirmusPiett said:

Rubber Ply under Wing TanksThis one is tricky as there is only written sources talking about it, and a handful of drawings. I found one photo that I'm 90% sure is showing the rubber ply clearly. The written sources are in the OP.

 

5952d7c7a7ba4_WingTanks.thumb.jpg.6f37fe

Here is what late production G4M1 Model 11s should have under each wing:

  Reveal hidden contents

 

 

Look at 56 seconds in that video you posted.

THAT is the ribs the rubber was mounted on. :)

(I have a keen eye for this)

 

 

 

AS to the report, I can make another citing the list of errors, for when a general update of model is done.

The tail gunner would be more useful for players, and yes, it would increase the upward angle.

 

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36 minutes ago, Pony51 said:

 

 

Look at 56 seconds in that video you posted.

THAT is the ribs the rubber was mounted on. :)

(I have a keen eye for this)

 

AS to the report, I can make another citing the list of errors, for when a general update of model is done.

The tail gunner would be more useful for players, and yes, it would increase the upward angle.

 


Oh, awesome! Good catch! :004_2:

Okay, that sounds great! Thank you for your assistance!

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A question:

 

You are talking about an upgraded G4M1, and not the G4M2?

How are the 2 different? (Japan aircraft n00b)

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8 hours ago, Pony51 said:

A question:

 

You are talking about an upgraded G4M1, and not the G4M2?

How are the 2 different? (Japan aircraft n00b)


Correct. The G4M2 Model 22 was a more significant redesign:

Brief summary of G4M2:

Spoiler

 

- Upgraded engines (Kasei Model 21, water-methanol injection, 1850 hp at take off), redesigned engine nacelles (individual exhaust stacks), and four-bladed props.

- Wings and other flight surfaces were redesigned (horizontal tail strengthened and increased in surface area; wingtips, horizontal tail and fin/rudder were rounded).

 

- Internal fuel capacity was increased (moar range). The tanks were still only partially protected with rubber lining under the wing, and other sources mention a little bit more rubber and the like internally. Still no self-sealing tanks.

- Tail wheel was initially made retractable, although this was eventually thrown out again.

- Greatly Increased glazing on the nose, and the 7.7mm gun became power-rotated.

 

- Dorsal flexible 7.7mm mount was replaced by a power-operated 20mm turret (that will be fun times in game :)), and two additional 7.7mm Type 92s could be placed in the sides of the nose.

 

- Waist blisters were changed to flush window panels (still 7.7mm).

- Tail gun position was redesigned further, with reduced ribbing and a "V" shape cut out.
 

- Some armour(!) plating. 5mm plates in the tail (these were actually introduced on late-production G4M1 Model 11s, but they were so useless that they were typically removed) and a 10mm armour plate fitted inside the dorsal turret.

- Some G4M2s had bulged bomb-bay doors, but these were eventually removed.

 

- Eventually an optically flat panel was installed on the nose cone glazing as an aid in night bombing.

- Model 22 ko got Type 3 Mk 6 search radar and the waist 7.7mm positions were replaced with Type 99 Mk 1 cannons (:DD). The side windows were offset, the starboard being placed further aft than the one to port.

- Model 22 otsu changed out the Type 99 Mk 1 in the dorsal turret for a Type 99 Mk 2.

- Model 24 got an engine upgrade again (Kasei Model 25), bomb-bay doors finally standard, engine cowlings given separate carburetor air intake on top.

- Model 24 ko got radar and 20mm waist positions like the Model 22 ko, and got a Type 99 Mk 2 in the dorsal turret like the Model 22 Otsu.

- Model 24 Hei swapped its  7.7mm in the nose for a 13mm MG, radar antenna moved above the nose cone.

- Model 24 Tei was the famous Ohka mother-ship. Various little changes (more armour, more fuel tank protection, fuel tanks moved, etc.), but we will never get this in game I would assume.

 

 

The difference between the early and late production G4M1s are mostly small. Some (like exhaust stacks for the engines) are a pain to keep track of. The most Gaijin can do is just pick one to model. They really can't go wrong, short of mixing and matching certain features.

- G4M1 Model 11 early production had Kasei Model 11 engines, the later production (the G4M1 in game being one) had the Kasei Model 15 with a larger supercharger. Better high altitude performance, externally indistinguishable from the Kasei Model 11.

- 30mm rubber was added from the 663rd (s/n 4663, March 1943) aircraft onward in an effort to help out the largely ineffective fire extinguishers and CO2 chambers behind No. 1 and 2 fuel tanks.

- 5mm plates were fitted behind the tail cannon to protect the 20mm ammo, but were so useless that they were often removed in the field.

- Addition of propeller spinners and the revised tail section are the two markers of a later production G4M1. Eventually the G4M1 Model 11 got the fully revised "V" shaped version and individual exhaust stacks.
Early vs. Later Production:
595514567e65f_G4M1Differences.jpg.ce10ef

Middle production (the one closest to what we have in game) vs. last production G4M1 Model 11. This isn't a super exact science, as the lack of prop spinners on the top G4M1 shows:

595514547c966_G4M1Differences2.jpg.72b65

Some early G4M2s with differences compared to the G4M1 Model 11 highlighted:

595514577a8f6_G4M2Differences.jpg.83cf70

Note the "V" shaped tail gunner's position with less ribbing on this G4M2. The last production versions of the G4M1 Model 11 also got it, but that doesn't really matter for the game:

G4M-16.jpg

Of course there was also the G4M3, which is in the WIP Japan tree as well IIRC.

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Good stuff, will need some thinking how to present this.

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1 hour ago, Pony51 said:

Good stuff, will need some thinking how to present this.

 

Okay, sounds good! Let me know if there is anything more I can do.

Pony51 (Posted )

After eating some sushi (I lie, it was ramen), have request, see reply.
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:good:

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With the minor variations, lets focus on the details you think the model should have.

with all the variations you point out, it would help to have a starting point with your suggestion on the game configuration, and why.

 

You said: "- G4M1 Model 11 early production had Kasei Model 11 engines, the later production (the G4M1 in game being one) had the Kasei Model 15 with a larger supercharger. Better high altitude performance, externally indistinguishable from the Kasei Model 11"

 

So, lets go with -

later G4M1 Model 11 with Kasei Model 15 with a larger supercharger (ps, is this what game x-ray shows?)

What is certain (because it was clearly a known feature):

  • Notch in tail turret, with altered arc.
  • Rubber on fuel tanks

What is not know (because of field changes)

  • Spiner Y/N?
  • Exhaust stub/pipe?

And opinion

  • Armor plates, as it factory installed but some (5mm) removed.  

Thanks

 

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53 minutes ago, Pony51 said:

With the minor variations, lets focus on the details you think the model should have.

with all the variations you point out, it would help to have a starting point with your suggestion on the game configuration, and why.

 

You said: "- G4M1 Model 11 early production had Kasei Model 11 engines, the later production (the G4M1 in game being one) had the Kasei Model 15 with a larger supercharger. Better high altitude performance, externally indistinguishable from the Kasei Model 11"

 

So, lets go with -

later G4M1 Model 11 with Kasei Model 15 with a larger supercharger (ps, is this what game x-ray shows?)

What is certain (because it was clearly a known feature):

  • Notch in tail turret, with altered arc.
  • Rubber on fuel tanks

What is not know (because of field changes)

  • Spiner Y/N?
  • Exhaust stub/pipe?

And opinion

  • Armor plates, as it factory installed but some (5mm) removed.  

Thanks

 


Re: Kasei 11 vs. 15

Unfortunately I couldn't tell you if the X-ray is correct. I'm very new to the discussion of engines. I attached another source (that literally just came in the mail, highly recommended little book) discussing the engines to this post. Maybe it will help, maybe not.

Re: Redesigned tail turret and rubber under fuel tanks

Yup, there should be plenty of evidence and photos to get those in there.

Re: Spinner

I would definitely include it. The vast majority of G4M1 photos I have seen include prop spinners. It would also leave the door open for Gaijin if they ever decided to do a G4M1 Model 11/E and Model 11/L in game, as they have done with other aircraft. The lack of spinners could be left to the early production model.

Re: Exhaust Pipes

This one is tough. Either the shorter ones (as in game), or the lengthened stacks seem to be acceptable. Just to come down on one side, I think the shorter ones (as in game) are fine.

Re: Two 5mm Armour Plates

Yeah, this could go either way, but from what I have read they were not well liked at all. Even 7.7mm punched through them, and they didn't offer any real crew protection anyway. I have no source indicating exactly how they were arranged other than that they were fitted behind the 20mm cannon to protect the explosive ammo. I think they can be safely omitted.

japanese aero engines kasei.pdf

Pony51 (Posted )

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I created report for the tail turret, #0059217

I created a second one for the aircraft model over all #0059217

 

Please post additional information here within next week, images and blueprints most welcome.

 

BTW, have you seen this?

http://www.airliners.net/photo/Japan-Navy/Mitsubishi-G4M1-Hamaki/1935065/L

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Hi as far as i under stand, the tail is the same but one time in open and one time in closed position

Source: Mitsubishi G4M Betty - Martin Ferkl, Revi Publications, 2002

2.thumb.jpg.cb221d507dd5c04c55418f214ff4

 

Source: Famous Airplanes of the World, No. 59 Mitsubishi Type 1 Attack Bomber (G4M) ''Betty'' - YUZAWA, Yutaka, ed., Bunrindo Co., Ltd., Tokyo (1996)

1.thumb.jpg.1b0ae4d008de014dbb248bae68a4

 

Source: Mitsubishi G4M ''Betty'' - Jacek Nowicki, Militaria, 1998

1-4.thumb.jpg.d62301c35c510852b621eb8f5c

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:good:

 

Looks like tail gun can elevate 55*, and same down (at top, in V cut tail).

I assume the tail mount is same, just the window was changed.

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The G4M2 is the one with the V cut tail, the ingame turret is correct, it is in the open position, to see in the pic with the red circle from my first post

 

Source: Famous Airplanes of the World, No. 59 Mitsubishi Type 1 Attack Bomber (G4M) ''Betty'' - YUZAWA, Yutaka, ed., Bunrindo Co., Ltd., Tokyo (1996)

1.thumb.jpg.bbcbc44c8c0391ae9d89d11aa63b2.thumb.jpg.7902ac318d38783bbcc369d0e5d9

 

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4 hours ago, Pony51 said:

:good:

 

Looks like tail gun can elevate 55*, and same down (at top, in V cut tail).

I assume the tail mount is same, just the window was changed.

 

Yeah, the exact 20mm mounting is identical between all three tail variants. The middle variant, as in game, was literally the original cone version with the "tip" cut off to improve the field of fire. The original production tail worked in that same awkward way that the G5N1's tail gunner works in game. The gun could only move on one axis, and the whole cone had to rotate in order for the gunner to put the 20mm on target.

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Looked up some more books seems like the version ingame is a G4M1 Model 11(late production). The G4M1 Model 12 and later had the v-form turret too.

 

Also the ingame model lacks the covering at the bomb bay for the bigger bombs and the torpedo.

Source:Mitsubishi G4M Betty - Martin Ferkl, Revi Publications, 2002

4.thumb.jpg.c03eb16ec49f383ac334d7427c6a

3.thumb.jpg.22de6f998949cc7a57a0df9efb31

 

found a blueprint of the side turret too, the ingame one lacks the rail

Source: Famous Airplanes of the World (old), No. 60 Mitsubishi G4M Type 1 Attack-Bomber, Bunrindo Co., Ltd., Tokyo (1975)

1.thumb.jpg.2d2377ccaade755eebd04bfaad19

 

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10 hours ago, MrMG42 said:

Looked up some more books seems like the version ingame is a G4M1 Model 11(late production). The G4M1 Model 12 and later had the v-form turret too.

 

Also the ingame model lacks the covering at the bomb bay for the bigger bombs and the torpedo.

Source:Mitsubishi G4M Betty - Martin Ferkl, Revi Publications, 2002

4.thumb.jpg.c03eb16ec49f383ac334d7427c6a

3.thumb.jpg.22de6f998949cc7a57a0df9efb31

 

found a blueprint of the side turret too, the ingame one lacks the rail

Source: Famous Airplanes of the World (old), No. 60 Mitsubishi G4M Type 1 Attack-Bomber, Bunrindo Co., Ltd., Tokyo (1975)

1.thumb.jpg.2d2377ccaade755eebd04bfaad19

 

 

Yes, there were three different tail versions for the G4M1: early, mid, and late. The late version was the V-type which was then carried over to the G4M2. The middle version is what we have in game, just incorrectly modeled as it is missing the top notch as shown in various photographs:
bettyt06.jpg

(http://www.aviationarchaeology.com/src/Yap/site4betty.htm)

There was a final tail gunner redesign for the G4M3, but that isn't relevant at the moment.

 

As for those drawings, that is awesome! Those bomb covers were what I mentioned in the OP, but couldn't find a source for. That is important info he has there @Pony51! Also details regarding the waste gunner positions. Great stuff MrMG42!
 

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