Jager49283

SP-70 / PanzerHaubitze-155-1

Do you support this?  

33 members have voted

  1. 1. Do you support this?

    • Yes, as a standard (will be in your every battle)
      24
    • Yes, as an event reward (will be rare in battles)
      5
    • No
      4
  2. 2. Should the early prototype be added?

    • Yes, as an event reward (will be rare in battles)
      14
    • Yes, as a standard (will be in your every battle)
      16
    • No
      3


SP-70 / PanzerHaubitze-155-1

http://www.militarymodelling.com/sites/1/images/member_albums/42220/sp70%20(1).jpg

One of the final prototypes.

 

History of development:

 

In 1963, NATO countries came to the conclusion that they needed to modernise their artillery systems and standardise the caliber and ammunition of the howitzers. In 1968, Germany, the US and the UK began to develop the FH-70, a new towed howitzer to replace the ones dating back to WW2 that also lacked common ammunition. Italy joined the project and the United States broke away 2 years later.
The objectives of the project included a high towing speed, a maximum range of 24 km with conventional ammunition, 30 km with rocket-assisted ammunition, the ability to fire 6 rounds/minute with burst fire, a sustained rate of fire of 3 rounds/minute, and compatibility with all existing and projected NATO 155 mm ammunition. The howitzer was also required to have an Auxiliary Power Unit (APU), which would not only provide hydraulic pressure and electrical power, but also provide power directly to the wheels themselves, allowing the gun crew to literally drive it as a vehicle (though only for short distances).
Though despite its long and troubled development, the FH-70 has defied the odds and become a success, with 1007 examples produced from 1977 to 1989. The production was shared by all three countries: Britain (Vickers Ltd) built the carriage, Germany (Rheinmetall GmbH) the ordnance and Italy (OTO Melara) the cradle.
 In 1973 development of the self-propelled version of the FH-70 commenced under the designation of the SP-70 with Germany as the project leader. The development was once again divided between the three nations to make maximum use of existing technologies. Germany (Rheinmetall GmbH) was responsible for the ordnance, chassis, powerplant, electric and hydraulic systems, Italy (OTO Melara) for the cradle, recoil system, elevating and balancing equipment, and Britain (Royal Armament Research and Development Establishment) for the turret, ammunition-handling system and the sighting system.
In 1980, the first stage of development was completed, 5 prototypes were built and tested. According to the results, all specifications, except for the rate of fire were deemed satisfactory.
Thus, changes to the ammunition supply and recoil mechanisms were included during the development of the second stage. The hull and turret, also had undergone changes. In 1982, 10 new units passed trials in Germany, and were later sent to Italy and the UK for further testing.
It was planned to produce a total of 640 units by 1987, 400 of which were meant for the Bundeswehr. However, in 1985 Germany ceased development funding and the project was shelved in favor of the US M109 that was already in service.
 

http://ic.pics.livejournal.com/panzerbar/17086497/927061/927061_original.jpg

An early prototype.

 

Technical details:

 

The SP-70 self-propelled howitzer is armed with a modified FH-70 gun. It has a large double-baffle muzzle brake and fume extractor. To achieve a high rate of fire the SP-70 is fitted with an autoloader; no details of the rate of fire have been released but it is probable that around 6 rounds a minute can be fired.
The ammunition is stored in the aft part of the turret. It is identical to that of the FH-70:

 

L15A1 - 43,5 kg H.E.I. round with 11,3 kg explosive mass,
DM105 - smoke round,
DM106 - illumination round.

 

In addition all standard NATO 155 mm projectiles can be fired. This includes the American DPICM M483A1 and the laser guided M712 Copperhead projectiles to destroy armoured targets effectively, the last mentioned one has a minimum range of 3 km though.
Secondary armament consists of a single 7,62 mm machine gun, mounted on top of the roof.
The SP-70 is based on the Leopard-1 MBT chassis, with several transmission modules from the Marder IFV. But unlike the mentioned, both turret and hull are of all welded aluminium construction (alloy AlZnMg1), with the driver’s compartment in the front, turret in the center and the engine with the transmission in the rear. The SP-70 is powered by a 1000 hp (735 kW) MTU MB871 8-cilinder V-diesel, plus a 24 kW auxiliary diesel engine with an electric generator and a hydraulic pump. The SPH is also fitted with NBC protection and an automatic fire suppression system.

In addition, smoke grenade launchers are installed on the front and back of the turret.

 

Technical Specifications:

 

Crew                                              5
Weight                                           43,52 t
Length (gun forward)                     10,2 m
Hull length                                      7,6 m
Width                                             3,5 m          
Height                                            2,8 m                   
Main armament                              39 calibers 155 mm FH-70
Secondary armament                    7,62 mm MG-3
Projectile weight                            43,5 kg
Maximum firing range                    24 km with regular or 30 km with rocket assisted rounds
Maximum rate of fire                      6 rpm
Elevation range                            -2,5 / +70 degrees
Traverse range                             360 degrees
Ammunition carried                       32 rounds
Machine gun ammo                      2000 rounds
Powerplant                                   1000 hp (735 kW) MTU MB871  diesel
Maximum road speed                   68 km/h
Range                                          550 km          

 

Spoiler

https://pp.userapi.com/c617923/v617923788/5779/7M7sC_v8n7U.jpghttps://topwar.ru/uploads/posts/2014-02/1392001790_sp70_prototype_02_of_16.jpghttps://topwar.ru/uploads/posts/2014-02/thumbs/1392001806_sp70_prototype_03_of_16.jpghttps://topwar.ru/uploads/posts/2014-02/1392001742_sp70_prototype_16_of_16.jpghttps://topwar.ru/uploads/posts/2014-02/1392001752_sp70_prototype_01_of_16.jpgСАУ SP70: неудачное европейское сотрудничество

Sources:

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited by Jager49283
  • Upvote 7
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So what is the penetration of these anti-armour rounds you mentioned?

Edited by Mercedes4321
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On 6/12/2017 at 4:02 PM, Mercedes4321 said:

So what is the penetration of these anti-armour rounds you mentioned?

 

No specifics, but likely not more than 2-3 inches (50-76mm): https://www.quora.com/What-type-of-material-does-a-wall-need-to-stop-artillery-rounds

 

Other 150mm+ SPHs introduced in the 1980s besides the PzHbz 155-1:

 

There's no point in having 155mm Tier 4-5 SPGs with only 76mm of pen unless player artillery is actually integrated into gameplay mechanics.

 

And in case anybody has concerns over how OP that will go over in WT (when comparing to arty gameplay in WoT), here's some solutions* that might actually be pretty balanced: https://forum.warthunder.com/index.php?/topic/154250-a-possible-artillery-vehicle-solution/&do=findComment&comment=6806614

 

 

*starting post by SyngedWaffles, additional gameplay ideas, David "Listy" Lister's perspective on in-game artillery, and finally some demonstration gameplay footage here (@ 0:37) and here

 

Edited by Results45
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The M483A1 is a round that explodes and expels 88 dual-purpose grenades at a predetermined time in flight. The result is a steel rain of grenades that can penetrate up to 2,75 inches (69,85 mm) of armor on impact. The grenades make use of the Monroe effect to penetrate armor, just like the H.E.A.T. rounds.

 

In more detail here: http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/systems/munitions/m483.htm

 

For direct fire I would rely on the H.E.I. rounds. After all, 155 mm is no joke.

 

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7 hours ago, Jager49283 said:

 

The M483A1 is a round that explodes and expels at a predetermined time in-flight 88 dual-purpose grenades that can penetrate up to 2,75 inches (69,85 mm) of armor on impact.

 

HA! I was right (guessed 3 inches max). :DD

Edited by Results45
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"laser guided M712 Copperhead projectiles to destroy armoured targets effectively, the last mentioned one has a minimum range of 3 km though."

 

so about the M712. first why is it just called the Copperhead? or is it just a moniker for it? or is it because it's a kind of HEAT round or ATGM?

 

the minimum range aspect- why does it have a minimum range? is it just because it travels so fast it's gone 3km before guidance can kick in? or is it launched artillery style and is basically an ironic air-to-ground missile ala those fired from the modern day shoulder-fired Javelin launcher?

 

and lastly, what the pen numbers on the M712? because they'd have to be in the tier 4-5 average if i'm going to say yes. because the M483A1 and it's pair of 88mm HEAT grenades only have the pen of the T-34 and Sherman APCBC and APHE respectively.

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10 hours ago, Jager49283 said:

 

The M483A1 is a round that explodes and at a predetermined time in flight expels 88 dual-purpose grenades that can penetrate up to 2,75 inches (69,85 mm) of armor on impact.

 

 

HA! I was right (guessed 3 inches max). :DD

 

10 hours ago, Jager49283 said:

 

For direct fire I would rely on the H.E.I. rounds. After all, 155 mm is no joke.

 

 

155mm HE round with 5.5-7.5kg TNT equivalent (penetrating up to 76mm) is a huge joke compared to HESH. 

Spoiler

 

 

Unlike 105mm, 120mm, or 183mm HESH that can one-shot things like Maus and T-10M, 155mm HE rounds can't unless they are shot from beyond-visual-range (5-10km+) so that the shell pens through the roof plate.

 

4 hours ago, Admiral_Aruon said:

"laser guided M712 Copperhead projectiles to destroy armoured targets effectively, the last mentioned one has a minimum range of 3 km though."

 

so about the M712. first why is it just called the Copperhead? or is it just a moniker for it? or is it because it's a kind of HEAT round or ATGM?

 

the minimum range aspect- why does it have a minimum range? is it just because it travels so fast it's gone 3km before guidance can kick in? or is it launched artillery style and is basically an ironic air-to-ground missile ala those fired from the modern day shoulder-fired Javelin launcher?

 

and lastly, what the pen numbers on the M712? because they'd have to be in the tier 4-5 average if i'm going to say yes. because the M483A1 and it's pair of 88mm HEAT grenades only have the pen of the T-34 and Sherman APCBC and APHE respectively.

 

The M712 Copperhead howitzer rounds and the similar SMArt 155/NATO BONUS shells, are 21st Century tech ;)

 

Schematic of the SMArt 155 round

Smart155 overview.svg
Phase Picture Description
1 An artillery piece fires a SMArt-155 round A SMArt-155/NATO BONUS round is fired from a standard rifled 155mm artillery tube.
2 The round flies through the air The round flies on a ballistic arc, with a range of 27.5/35km kilometres (17.1/21.7 mi)[4]
3 The ejector pulls the submunitions clear of the shell Mid-flight a timer fuse ignites a small ejector rocket in the nose, which drags the two submunitions out of the shell casing.
4 The submunitions fall free Once clear of the shell, the submunitions fall toward the target. The shell and the nose assembly fall away.
5 The submunitions on parachutes The submunitions deploy parachutes, and independently corkscrew down over the subject area, scanning for targets.
6 A submunition explodes above a tank Once a submunition detects a target vehicle beneath it, it detonates its explosive payload. This creates a high-velocity explosively formed projectile which strikes the target vehicle from above, where the armour is weak, for maximum effect.

 

8 hours ago, *dontask123456649 said:

+1 for german fv4005. Would could possibly cap out the german open top td/assault gun tree with the rack panzers being moved to the td tree. Shut up and take my money

 

The PzHbz 155-1 is nothing like the FV4005 (aka "Super Conway"). The HE-I/HE-RAP ammo it fires is essentially the modern-day equivalent to what comes out of the Ho-Ro (6.4kg TNT, 51mm pen) and Sturmpanzer II (8.6kg TNT, 60mm pen) except that it can hit targets relatively accurately 20+ kilometers away.

 

We don't have the gameplay mechanics for it yet, but for SPHs that fire mainly HE ammo to be effective at anti-tank, they must do so from at least 5km away in order to pen roof plates of heavy tanks and MBTs.

 

Like this:

.

Edited by Results45
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On 6/13/2017 at 11:57 AM, Dalles said:

Remembering that we already have vehicles with this category in the game, it would be very cool to have postwar versions ww2.

UP

+1

 

Postwar SPHs would only be effective in current gameplay if they have visual distance direct-fire ammo (ex. 2S1 and 2S3 which have AP-T, APHE, HEAT, or HEAT-T in addition to HE-FRAG, HE-RAP, and shrapnel rounds).

 

Most US and NATO 155mm SPHs including Germany didn't have AP or dedicated anti-tank shells (unguided multistage or semi-guided) until the 1990s.

Edited by Results45
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18 minutes ago, Results45 said:

 

Postwar SPGs would only be effective in current gameplay if they have visual distance direct-fire ammo (ex. 2S1 and 2S3 which have AP-T, APHE, HEAT, or HEAT-FS in addition to HE-FRAG and HERA).

 

Most US and NATO 155mm SPGs including Germany didn't have AP or dedicated anti-tank shells (unguided multi-stage or semi-guided) until the 1990s.

The UK 105mm FV433 Abbot had a HESH round for direct fire engagements.

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ah. thanks for the info Results.

 

interesting... though this part: "independently corkscrew down over the subject area, scanning for targets" would violate the no computer-guidance rule as it autonomously seeks a target.

 

yeah i don't think this would work well with either main shell.

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4 hours ago, Mercedes4321 said:

The UK 105mm FV433 Abbot had L42/43 HESH rounds for direct fire engagements.

 

Ah nice.

 

The American 105mm M108 SPH fires M67 HEAT and standard NATO HEAT alongside HE and HE-RAP/ER.

 

Now I wonder if the Abbot and M108 could fire standard NATO APFSDS.........

Edited by Results45
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31 minutes ago, Results45 said:

I wonder if the Abbot and M108 could fire standard NATO APFSDS.........

 

Not sure about the M108, but the Abbot definitely used two piece ammunition. And I don't remember ever hearing anything about two piece 105mm APFSDS, so probably not.

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59 minutes ago, Results45 said:

I wonder if the Abbot and M108 could fire standard NATO APFSDS.........

For the Abbot, almost certainly not. It certainly never used those rounds in service at least.

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Found penetration values for the 152mm BP-540 HEAT-T round fired from the 2S3 Akatsiya:

  • 250mm @ 90o @ all ranges
  • 220mm @ 60o @ all ranges
  • 120mm @ 30o @ all ranges
 
lc 152 BP540 HEAT
Edited by Results45
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10 hours ago, Jager49283 said:

Here is a rich(not full though) list of 155 mm NATO ammunition: http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/systems/munitions/155.htm

 

I also added a poll. Vote, if you will.

 

To sum it up, what you're proposing is basically a Tier 4/Tier 5 Sturmpanzer II and there is not much sense in using it for anti-tank purposes besides nuking lightly-armored vehicles (i.e. light tanks, armored cars, APCs, SPGs, SPAA, FV4005, and Leopard 1) unless BVR artillery gameplay gets added. Otherwise, it's just a sitting duck waiting to be clubbed by mediums, heavies, and MBTs with 80mm+ of armor.

Edited by Results45
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155 mm H.E. shells will probably penetrate most of your potential enemies through the roof, as Tier 5 tanks rarely have more than 50 mm of armor on their top. Think of it as a much faster KV2(or the Sturmpanzer II you mentioned) with a high rate of fire.

I also don't mind the artillery gameplay you proposed, but at the moment there aren't any maps big enough to realize it.

A howitzer acting as a direct fire tank-destroyer is much more sane than a "Katyusha" engaging foes in close combat in the middle of a city.

Edited by Jager49283
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