Abetter1

The German BnZ tactic is highly challenging

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Posted (edited)

I'm getting really frustrated playing with the FW, the BnZ tactic doesn't work quite well in game, mainly due to markers avoiding any chance for a sneak attack, secondly for enemy planes being far superior in turning, doesn't give you room even show on their 6, and when you eventually lose that energy gain, you are are dead meat once they are on your tail, and I have a great example of it with my recent match, how do you do it right? 

Edited by Abetter1
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You have to be extremely cautious with your maneuvers and energy lead. With the still boosted controls in RB (aka less boosted than AB, but more boosted controls than SB), it is too easy to dodge your attack and start to chase you.

After an attack, gain distance horizontally for a long time, keep your speed high.

 

I am by far not the best to explain, but I highly recommend this pilot:

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC4CMQAxmWBi9wigqmMsTLyQ

 

He makes very good videos and explains what he does.

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Posted (edited)

Fw's are quite best plane to use BnZ tactics, cause of insane roll rate:017:

1. Gain altitude, then speed.

2. Wait for furball to form. 

3. Dive to occupied bogey. If bogey is on teammate six, its better. Don't turn. Use your roll rate for small trajectory corrections. No more than 10 deg elevator. Roll rate does miracles at changing banking direction.

4. Fire. Don't turn or follow him.

5. If you missed, don't turn. Don't follow him.

6. Extend. Don't turn.

7. Climb. Don't turn.

8. Reposition yourself. Now you can turn. 

9. Repeat from 3.

 

If you are jumped on six: shallow dive to gain speed.

1) If bandit has way more speed, do half circle diving turn, then roll to opposite direction and watch how he will overshoot.  Now you will have oportunity to snapshot. If you missed, don't try to follow him. He just bleed ton of energy, keep your speed up. Your roll rate does miracles, when you need to energy trap bandit.

2) if bandit don't have massive energy advantage, its high probabillity you will outdive and outrun him. Now you can do shallow zoom climb. Like 10 deg. If he follows, wait a bit, and perform shallow spiral climb, more a chandelle. He will stall and you will have opportunity to drop your nose on him. Roll rate does miracles here too.

 

Try to fight vertical. You have superb e retention. It doesn't mean do vertical loops. Chandelles, yo-yo's, hammerheads is a way of fight. Diving spirals can de*ss you from a sticky situation in a hurry, with opportunity to shot him if you will translate it to scissors. Vertical scissoring is hard, but achievable.

 

Allways remember to leave some altitude for insurance. If you are caught on deck, its better to have ton of energy to run away, or you are dead.

 

Don't be greaddy for kill. It is very hard to kill plane, who has enough energy to maneuver. Couple of first pass are to bleed bogeys speed and altitude, while keeping yourself up.

 

And take no less than 45mins of fuel. It will push center if gravity back so it will be way easier to pull nose up. Another advance is you won't feel pressure to participate in center of furrball.

Edited by BrassWolf
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Posted (edited)

1 hour ago, Abetter1 said:

I'm getting really frustrated playing with the FW, the BnZ tactic doesn't work quite well in game, mainly due to markers avoiding any chance for a sneak attack, secondly for enemy planes being far superior in turning, doesn't give you room even show on their 6, and when you eventually lose that energy gain, you are are dead meat once they are on your tail, and I have a great example of it with my recent match, how do you do it right? 

 

You have a point regarding enemy markers, but if you want the pure "no marker" combat, there is simulator battle for that.  Crys for realism from players using mouse aim which basically flys the plane for you, seems a little contradictory, but I digress...

 

As far as energy fighting goes - its meant to be a challenge.  Its why its the hardest form of combat to master.  If the enemy is able to turn and get on your six in time to get shots off, that probably means you arent going fast enough to create enough separation in time.  By the time the enemy can turn on you, you should already be 0.8km (or more) from them, which basically gives them no way (outside of a very very luck shot) to get any hits on you.

 

If you lose your energy advantage, it means you have over committed.  You should recognize when you are losing your energy advantage, disengage, resume climbing, and re-engage once your maximum advantage is restored.  By the time you have lost all your energy advantage, its too late.

Edited by *walfreyydo
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Posted (edited)

2 hours ago, Abetter1 said:

I'm getting really frustrated playing with the FW, the BnZ tactic doesn't work quite well in game, mainly due to markers avoiding any chance for a sneak attack, secondly for enemy planes being far superior in turning, doesn't give you room even show on their 6, and when you eventually lose that energy gain, you are are dead meat once they are on your tail, and I have a great example of it with my recent match, how do you do it right? 

BnZ has nothing to do with surprise. Your not going to sneak up hardly anyone and it has nothing to do with markers. RB has 3rd person view and even the very least skilled players will always have their head on a swivel when they are not engaged. 

 

Killing people with BnZ tactics is going to come down to a few strategies. 

 

1. Attacking causing them to maneuver hard and blowing energy. There are a couple key points to this most people never figure out. First and foremost do not dive from a bad angle, position is everything in these attacks. Take the time to set up a dive to their 6 o'clock. You can pull lead a little but do not commit, once you hit your convergence stop. Straighten out, extend horizontally (this is where most people fail) once you have enough separation go into a zoom climb. If they flip onto your tail don't panic you are much faster. Just make gentle maneuvers side to side with a small vertical element until you are out of gun range. Now this seems pretty predictable and it is and that's why you must incorporate some feint dives trying to make them commit to their defensive maneuvers early leaving a slow easy shot. 

 

2.  Energy trap. This is much more difficult and takes much longer to master. I'm not going to write the book needed, just go check out VannSin on YouTube, as suggested Messer has a couple also but not many. 

 

3. Slashing attacks through the furball. This is by far the easiest but it is very situational. Find a furball, look for an occupied target. Make a high speed slashing attack. Your only going to get a small window for a deflection shot usually. Don't turn! Ever! around a furball and be conscious of which direction you extend. So that you don't zoom climb into a bunch of enemies. 

 

BnZ is very simple, but that does not mean that it's easy. Just like anything else it takes practice. And more than anything else it takes patience and discipline. 

Edited by Hank_HI11
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I was going to make a several paragraph long /rant but I erased it at the last second.

 

The Anton's loose any edge for carrying after the first one imho. You should play it in a supporting role, clearing tails.

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Still, RB shouldn't have:

 

1. Engine noise of enemy planes coming up behind you.

2. Flashing red arrows signifying markers of enemies coming up behind you

3. Enemy Markers being spotted at more than 3km away, especially if your camera is not facing towards said enemies.

4. Shared Spotting

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Have you flown the P-51D? It's even worse, it doesn't roll, doesn't yaw, and doesn't have a proper BnZ snapshoting guns. Fws are much better boom&zoomers and much more enjoyable to fly.

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5 minutes ago, Youda008 said:

Have you flown the P-51D? It's even worse, it doesn't roll, doesn't yaw, and doesn't have a proper BnZ snapshoting guns. Fws are much better boom&zoomers and much more enjoyable to fly.

At least it has an elevator... and roll speed gets better at medium-high speeds.

Though I cant say which one is better or worse. Overall, I have been enjoying P-51s more than Fw190s.

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Actually BnZ was substantially easier at one point in the past where we had reduced spotting distance for enemy planes, no shared hivemind vision, and you weren't able to hear the engine sounds of planes nearby. From my own experience surprise attacks and BnZ in general was easier back then. Apparently alot of people rely on markers and that engine sound instead of doing their own work spotting. Was much more fun back then over all IMO.

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lol, FW are beasts! great energy fighters, main key is to stay above 400 KPH ias, if you get below 350 u'll turn into a brick. Also if you wanna make a spitifre panic cus it cant outturn you in a dive, use your flaps, they take a beatin'. uh and The FW can be flown ultra agressivly, the 190's are one of my favourite plane series, from start to the end! If you learn how to manage your energy and roll no one will survive in a 1v1 against a FW. Best lowiter FW's are A1 and A4, The A5 is doable too, but considerably harder than the A4. The A4 and A5 are really close performance wise, but with the A4 you get a BR 4.3 where you can get lucky and slaughter 3.3 planes :).

 

Don't give up on FW, they are awsome and deadly. Also take a close look to the Linked youtube channel of Messerschmitt, he does know his FW's, analyze the video step by step and try to copy his moves and you might "git gud" in Kurt Tanks plane !

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3 minutes ago, KoocieKoo said:

lol, FW are beasts! great energy fighters, main key is to stay above 400 KPH ias, if you get below 350 u'll turn into a brick. Also if you wanna make a spitifre panic cus it cant outturn you in a dive, use your flaps, they take a beatin'. uh and The FW can be flown ultra agressivly, the 190's are one of my favourite plane series, from start to the end! If you learn how to manage your energy and roll no one will survive in a 1v1 against a FW. Best lowiter FW's are A1 and A4, The A5 is doable too, but considerably harder than the A4. The A4 and A5 are really close performance wise, but with the A4 you get a BR 4.3 where you can get lucky and slaughter 3.3 planes :).

 

Don't give up on FW, they are awsome and deadly. Also take a close look to the Linked youtube channel of Messerschmitt, he does know his FW's, analyze the video step by step and try to copy his moves and you might "git gud" in Kurt Tanks plane !

I agree on the A-4 and A-1, but any Fw above them gets incrementally tougher to fly.

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2 minutes ago, Stahlvormund101 said:

I agree on the A-4 and A-1, but any Fw above them gets incrementally tougher to fly.

 

Definetly not Doras

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44 minutes ago, Youda008 said:

Have you flown the P-51D? It's even worse, it doesn't roll, doesn't yaw, and doesn't have a proper BnZ snapshoting guns. Fws are much better boom&zoomers and much more enjoyable to fly.

Though you forget that the P-51D's have 60kph more topspeed than the Fw's of same BR. That's quite much.

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FW D9, D12, TA 152 H1/C3 are all beasts too. incredible accelerations, good to very good climb and still that awsome roll rate. Especially the D9 is a sealclubber nowadays @5.3 !

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Just now, BrassWolf said:

Definetly not Doras

The D-9 is fine (though stiff elevator syndrome hurts it), the D-12 and D-13 less so.

Just now, KoocieKoo said:

FW D9, D12, TA 152 H1/C3 are all beasts too. incredible accelerations, good to very good climb and still that awsome roll rate. Especially the D9 is a sealclubber nowadays @5.3 !

I chased down a D-9 in my P-51D-30. That's 1.0 BR lower. I wouldnt call it "sealclubbing".

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1 minute ago, Stahlvormund101 said:

The D-9 is fine (though stiff elevator syndrome hurts it), the D-12 and D-13 less so.

 

If you fly fw's (Anton's and Dora's), take no less than 45 min fuel. It will allow you to pull more g.

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1 minute ago, KoocieKoo said:

p51 D30 is undertired like crazy, apart from dat, most ppl dunno how to dogfight in Doras or any FW, If you want to i will show you sealclubbing :)

If you make a video, that'd be highly appreciated.

 

4 minutes ago, BrassWolf said:

 

 

If you fly fw's (Anton's and Dora's), take no less than 45 min fuel. It will allow you to pull more g.

Thanks for the tip. Didnt know that.

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1 hour ago, Stahlvormund101 said:

If you make a video, that'd be highly appreciated.

 

Thanks for the tip. Didnt know that.

 

Be aware, 45mins fuel will change how fw's feel, so you need to adapt to it.

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Posted (edited)

3 hours ago, Youda008 said:

Have you flown the P-51D? It's even worse, it doesn't roll, doesn't yaw, and doesn't have a proper BnZ snapshoting guns. Fws are much better boom&zoomers and much more enjoyable to fly.

All the P 51Ds eats Antons easily. No special skill required either. With the D30 you can even get from energy dis advantage to energy advantage below 3000m.

Edited by *Charan87
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Posted (edited)

I'm getting slightly better now, but still far from my pro days few years ago, recent match 1v1 against a bf-g2 with my thypoon, he was pretty good but he had to bail to refuel or rearm, I was above his airfield when he landed thinking I went off, made the chance and dive hard straight on his 6, just before hitting the trigger the alien super ufo AA's broke my tail control and my plane lift off, I bailed since I had no chance to recover with no tail control, really realistic, alien AA's been here since day 1, I see gaijin doesn't change much over the years. 

Edited by Abetter1
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3 hours ago, Stahlvormund101 said:

Though you forget that the P-51D's have 60kph more topspeed than the Fw's of same BR. That's quite much.

I was talking about the ability to hit a target during BnZ attack. What's the point of having slightly better performance, if you can't convert it into kill, because the plane just can't aim. It starts wobbling and swaying terribly when you try to aim on enemy, who it turning and rolling. It's almost impossible to get guns with Mustangs, whereas aiming with Fockewulfs is easy, the instructor works much better with these planes. And they also have one-hit-kill guns, especially the D-12.

 

3 hours ago, Stahlvormund101 said:

Thanks for the tip. Didnt know that.

Yes, look

Spoiler

 

Since i use 45 mins fuel, the Fw-190 D-9 is unstoppable.

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1 hour ago, Youda008 said:

I was talking about the ability to hit a target during BnZ attack. What's the point of having slightly better performance, if you can't convert it into kill, because the plane just can't aim. It starts wobbling and swaying terribly when you try to aim on enemy, who it turning and rolling. It's almost impossible to get guns with Mustangs, whereas aiming with Fockewulfs is easy, the instructor works much better with these planes. And they also have one-hit-kill guns, especially the D-12.

 

Yes, look

  Reveal hidden contents

 

Since i use 45 mins fuel, the Fw-190 D-9 is unstoppable.

Overall the P-51 D30 and the D9 are about equal. Maybe it's been a long time since you flew the Mustangs they have had some changes, or maybe you just need to L2P. 

Yes the antons have more stopping power. What good will that do you if you can't get an energy advantage?

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11 minutes ago, *Charan87 said:

Overall the P-51 D30 and the D9 are about equal. Maybe it's been a long time since you flew the Mustangs they have had some changes, or maybe you just need to L2P. 

Yes the antons have more stopping power. What good will that do you if you can't get an energy advantage?

It is indeed a long time since i flew P-51 D-30, but i was flying P-51 D-20 the previous week, i had at least 20 battles in it, and it's pure pain. Last month i spent in D-9 and D-12 and i would never take P-51 over it if i had a choice, P-51 is just annoying fast flying brick while Fw actually kills the enemies.

 

And i can't see why would you not get an energy advantage, both planes are very close in climb rate and acceleration, actually i think that D-9 outclimbs the D-30. Even if that wasn't true and P-51 D-30 might win in 1 vs 1, Fw-190 D-9 is better for making kills in RB. You fly them both the same way but D-9 is much better at it.

 

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