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Update 18.04.2017 (1.67.2.95)


Stona
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  • A bug where occasionally an APHE round would either not penetrate or the resultant explosion caused little spalling effect has been fixed
  • Client stability has been improved. 

 

The current provided patchnotes reflect the major changes within the game as part of this Update. Some updates and fixes may be not listed in the provided notes. War Thunder is constantly improving all the time and certain fixes may be implemented without the client being updated.

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since when fuse failure (which was related with ~25% of ammunition and it was historical) is a bug ? Really I was thinking that gj started with fixes for horrible aphe overperformance ammo (and that this change was part of it), when we can expect real performance of aphe and not current totally fake fireball of doom?

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1 hour ago, Stona said:

 


A bug where an APHE round explosion caused little spalling effect has been fixed

Tiger approves

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1 hour ago, GreenAid said:

Will APHE ever be fixed to create a cone of shrapnel instead of working like a hand grenade??? It's going at 800m/s, not the same thing....

It's not going 800 m/s its only going a fraction of that, the explosion velocity will be a lot more significant and the fragments bounce thus it will work like a super grenade. Please stop trying to "fix" this, as it is right now its actually a little bit too weak since the fragments have a limited travel range when they should actually completely fill the crew compartment regardless of size.

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By spallling do you mean like the one after the activation of the fuse or like the spalling AP causes the instant it penetrates the armor?

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3 hours ago, ganJ said:

since when fuse failure (which was related with ~25% of ammunition and it was historical) is a bug ? Really I was thinking that gj started with fixes for horrible aphe overperformance ammo (and that this change was part of it), when we can expect real performance of aphe and not current totally fake fireball of doom?

 

A hand grenade exploding inside a tank is going to kill or main most of the crew, and that's 50-60 grams of explosive - about half of the standard Tiger shell, for example. I'd say the way things are right now, the effects in an enclosed space on people close to an explosion of that size is pretty close to reality. Solid shot seems to under-perform a little, but that doesn't mean APHE needs to be nerfed.

 

And in a game like War Thunder, outside of Simulation mode perhaps, do you really want fuse failure to be a feature? In something like Steel Beasts I could understand, but such a feature would quickly rise to the top of most annoying aspects of ground forces. Maybe you are a sim player, but I doubt even many of them would like their shells to have little to no effect 25% of the time. Sometimes gameplay experience needs to come before realism, and I think this is one of those cases.

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2 hours ago, inset_judgement said:

It's not going 800 m/s its only going a fraction of that, the explosion velocity will be a lot more significant and the fragments bounce thus it will work like a super grenade. Please stop trying to "fix" this, as it is right now its actually a little bit too weak since the fragments have a limited travel range when they should actually completely fill the crew compartment regardless of size.

What? Do you play the game? any >=75mm shell can instantly kill 5-6 crew of a tank if shot at the center of gravity, or in a spot that gives "look" to the whole crew...

 

There was a topic some time ago of reports of APHE not being as deadly as it is ingame, actually doing little injuries only, for non-centered hits, i.e. not perforating the center plate of the tank for example.

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1 hour ago, ReachForTheSky said:

 

A hand grenade exploding inside a tank is going to kill or main most of the crew, and that's 50-60 grams of explosive - about half of the standard Tiger shell, for example. I'd say the way things are right now, the effects in an enclosed space on people close to an explosion of that size is pretty close to reality. Solid shot seems to under-perform a little, but that doesn't mean APHE needs to be nerfed.

 

And in a game like War Thunder, outside of Simulation mode perhaps, do you really want fuse failure to be a feature? In something like Steel Beasts I could understand, but such a feature would quickly rise to the top of most annoying aspects of ground forces. Maybe you are a sim player, but I doubt even many of them would like their shells to have little to no effect 25% of the time. Sometimes gameplay experience needs to come before realism, and I think this is one of those cases.

1. read ww2 casualty reports
2. don't compare frag or HE grenades to armor piercing ammunition with explosive filler...

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3 hours ago, ReachForTheSky said:

 

A hand grenade exploding inside a tank is going to kill or main most of the crew, and that's 50-60 grams of explosive - about half of the standard Tiger shell, for example. I'd say the way things are right now, the effects in an enclosed space on people close to an explosion of that size is pretty close to reality. Solid shot seems to under-perform a little, but that doesn't mean APHE needs to be nerfed.

 

The problem isn't really with the damage it causes - it is that tank crews keep fighting until, literally, the last man.

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2 hours ago, GreenAid said:

What? Do you play the game? any >=75mm shell can instantly kill 5-6 crew of a tank if shot at the center of gravity, or in a spot that gives "look" to the whole crew...

 

There was a topic some time ago of reports of APHE not being as deadly as it is ingame, actually doing little injuries only, for non-centered hits, i.e. not perforating the center plate of the tank for example.

An 85 into a Dicker Max should be completely filling it up, unfortunately currently its still possible for a hit on the front plate to only take out the driver and radio operator, the fragments are still too short ranged.

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1 hour ago, inset_judgement said:

An 85 into a Dicker Max should be completely filling it up, unfortunately currently its still possible for a hit on the front plate to only take out the driver and radio operator, the fragments are still too short ranged.

 

the Dicker Max crew would certainly bail if the driver is killed regardless.....

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Other news that seems related to this latest update:  

The Ki-67-I otsu (Japanese bomber aircraft) has a forward wing mounted antenna that wasn't there before.  

Just saying... not mentioned in update notes.  Not important either, but noticed... :017: 

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9 hours ago, Mustangace said:

Other news that seems related to this latest update:  

The Ki-67-I otsu (Japanese bomber aircraft) has a forward wing mounted antenna that wasn't there before.  

Just saying... not mentioned in update notes.  Not important either, but noticed... :017: 

 

And hence the use of the following caveat;

 

The current provided patch notes reflect the major changes within the game as part of this Update. Some updates and fixes may be not listed in the provided notes. War Thunder is constantly improving all the time and certain fixes may be implemented without the client being updated.

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On 4/18/2017 at 7:08 PM, ReachForTheSky said:

 

A hand grenade exploding inside a tank is going to kill or main most of the crew, and that's 50-60 grams of explosive - about half of the standard Tiger shell, for example. I'd say the way things are right now, the effects in an enclosed space on people close to an explosion of that size is pretty close to reality. Solid shot seems to under-perform a little, but that doesn't mean APHE needs to be nerfed.

 

And in a game like War Thunder, outside of Simulation mode perhaps, do you really want fuse failure to be a feature? In something like Steel Beasts I could understand, but such a feature would quickly rise to the top of most annoying aspects of ground forces. Maybe you are a sim player, but I doubt even many of them would like their shells to have little to no effect 25% of the time. Sometimes gameplay experience needs to come before realism, and I think this is one of those cases.

APHE does not work like a grenade. 

 

http://ww2talk.com/index.php?media/tank-casualties-survey-nwe-1945.16205/#media

 

All the tanks on this page of this report were successfully penetrated by APHE. 

 

75 mm APHE killed 12% of the crew where there were no burn casualties (no fires).. so what does a bigger APHE round, with more spalling do?

88mm APHE killed 13 % of the crew where there were no burn casualties (no fires). 

 

And what about fires?

 

75mm APHE killed 22% of the crew where there were burn casualties.

88mm APHE killed 38% of the crew where there were burn casualties.

 

In other words large APHE shells cause more deadly fires in ammo racks or fuel tanks, but that's about it. If this doesn't happen 12% die from 75mm APHE (something like the Panther gun), and 13% die from 88mm APHE.

 

This can be explained by the fundamental difference between APHE and grenades.

 

For reference to what the raw explosive power of 226g TNT will do, this is the MK3A2 concussion grenade :

https://fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/land/mk3a2.htm

It only causes casualties in a 2 m radius, and lethality would probably be only in direct contact, in fact I cannot find any evidence this grenade will be reliably lethal.

 

The M67 uses 260g of TNT, and designed solely for fragmentation. Grenades designed for fragmentation are made with structurally compromised cases, this is not how a hardened steel penetrator like APHE is made.

 

The only value these small bursting charges give to APHE are to help the shell fragment, which any AP shell can do.. APHE just does this more reliably, when the bursting charge goes off at the optimum time. (Sometimes it will be before or during penetration, sometimes afterward).

 

When the shell fragments, it mostly contains the pressure wave of the small explosion, soaking up the energy to tear the shell apart.. But the raw explosion power will always lower than the MK3A2 or M67, even for equivalent explosive weight. Hardened steel penetrators are designed to penetrate, not fragment. They will fragment far less energetically than a similarly filled grenade, so some change is needed.. I hope they get it right eventually.

 

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On 18.4.2017 at 3:06 PM, Stona said:

Maintenance%20(2).jpg


  • A bug where occasionally an APHE round would either not penetrate or the resultant explosion caused little spalling effect has been fixed
  • Client stability has been improved. 

 

The current provided patchnotes reflect the major changes within the game as part of this Update. Some updates and fixes may be not listed in the provided notes. War Thunder is constantly improving all the time and certain fixes may be implemented without the client being updated.

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Edited by SD501st
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22 hours ago, EE51555 said:

APHE does not work like a grenade. 

 

http://ww2talk.com/index.php?media/tank-casualties-survey-nwe-1945.16205/#media

 

All the tanks on this page of this report were successfully penetrated by APHE. 

 

75 mm APHE killed 12% of the crew where there were no burn casualties (no fires).. so what does a bigger APHE round, with more spalling do?

88mm APHE killed 13 % of the crew where there were no burn casualties (no fires). 

 

And what about fires?

 

75mm APHE killed 22% of the crew where there were burn casualties.

88mm APHE killed 38% of the crew where there were burn casualties.

 

In other words large APHE shells cause more deadly fires in ammo racks or fuel tanks, but that's about it. If this doesn't happen 12% die from 75mm APHE (something like the Panther gun), and 13% die from 88mm APHE.

 

This can be explained by the fundamental difference between APHE and grenades.

 

For reference to what the raw explosive power of 226g TNT will do, this is the MK3A2 concussion grenade :

https://fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/land/mk3a2.htm

It only causes casualties in a 2 m radius, and lethality would probably be only in direct contact, in fact I cannot find any evidence this grenade will be reliably lethal.

 

The M67 uses 260g of TNT, and designed solely for fragmentation. Grenades designed for fragmentation are made with structurally compromised cases, this is not how a hardened steel penetrator like APHE is made.

 

The only value these small bursting charges give to APHE are to help the shell fragment, which any AP shell can do.. APHE just does this more reliably, when the bursting charge goes off at the optimum time. (Sometimes it will be before or during penetration, sometimes afterward).

 

When the shell fragments, it mostly contains the pressure wave of the small explosion, soaking up the energy to tear the shell apart.. But the raw explosion power will always lower than the MK3A2 or M67, even for equivalent explosive weight. Hardened steel penetrators are designed to penetrate, not fragment. They will fragment far less energetically than a similarly filled grenade, so some change is needed.. I hope they get it right eventually.

 

No this is all incorrecte. APHE is even more effective than a grenade because its in a trapped compartment and the fragments bounce, its just the fragments are caught by more people. 10-20% death rate is accurate as thats about the area of the body where immediate death will occur, fragments anywhere else might do horrible damage but wont kill someone. This only proves that medical science was advanced by WW2, not that APHE was ineffective. Just a misreading of the data as this data only includes the dead, not those who could no longer operate a tank which id guess might be about 50% per APHE hit, maybe even more.

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14 hours ago, inset_judgement said:

No this is all incorrecte. APHE is even more effective than a grenade because its in a trapped compartment and the fragments bounce, its just the fragments are caught by more people. 10-20% death rate is accurate as thats about the area of the body where immediate death will occur, fragments anywhere else might do horrible damage but wont kill someone. This only proves that medical science was advanced by WW2, not that APHE was ineffective. Just a misreading of the data as this data only includes the dead, not those who could no longer operate a tank which id guess might be about 50% per APHE hit, maybe even more.

 

Guesses don't cut it - do you know of any studies or empirical evidence to support this contention??

 

Because the empirical studies I know of (UK Armoured survey) do not show anything of the sort.

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On 20.04.2017 at 8:20 PM, inset_judgement said:

Just a misreading of the data as this data only includes the dead, not those who could no longer operate a tank which id guess might be about 50% per APHE hit, maybe even more.

And? In War Thunder it would mean 1 crewmen going black and 2 others turning yellow-to-orange. Fact that in War Thunder APHE kills 3 to all in one go instead, proves it obscenely overpowered compared to reality.

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On 4/22/2017 at 9:21 AM, kireta21 said:

And? In War Thunder it would mean 1 crewmen going black and 2 others turning yellow-to-orange. Fact that in War Thunder APHE kills 3 to all in one go instead, proves it obscenely overpowered compared to reality.

 

As I keep saying, I don't think you could change this alone - there would have to be a bunch of asociated changes to make it work within Gaijin's stated aim of having a fast paced game..

 

My thoughts would be along the lines of:

  • abandoned vehicles stay on the map until destroyed
  • destroyed means on fire or exploded
  • different rewards for causing abandon and destruction
  • a differential experience loss for crew killed vs wounded 

APHE would have an advantage in causing fatalities and destruction..... but a marginal one, in the same way that solid shot has a marginal advantage in penetration viz a vis an otherwise identical APHE round.

 

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On 21.4.2017 at 11:21 PM, kireta21 said:

And? In War Thunder it would mean 1 crewmen going black and 2 others turning yellow-to-orange. Fact that in War Thunder APHE kills 3 to all in one go instead, proves it obscenely overpowered compared to reality.

 

What makes you think so? It was never specified what a black person in wt would mean in real life. It could be that he is dead, but it could also be that a black crewman just means that he is unable to continue combat, which includes being dead, but also losing an arm, going blind, losing consciousness, etc., which would make a lot more sense to make it realistic. 

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