DoLhades

British Extended Ground Forces Project

The Extended British Ground Forces Tree

An expansion Project

 

The Team

Project Heads:

DoLhades

Mercedes4321

*Swanseasean96

 

Research Assistance:

Listy

 

Graphics Producer:

Carrus_Lorricatus

 

 

Our Goals: As a team, we have noticed that we felt the British tree lacking. Now of course that is going to happen to a new tree, but we felt that to really get the British big, it is best to give Gaijin all the information that they need. In this aim, we hope to see a fully fledged tree produced with all the research required, thus reducing development time for the British tree.

 

 

But why are so many Indian, Irish, Canadian, Australian, Cypriot, South African, and New Zealander tanks on the tree?

Our aim is to create a British commonwealth tree. A lot of nations kept close contact with their former Empire, and many maintained a very similar diplomatic stance. Some such as Malta, even considered full integration into the United Kingdom, without ever being a part of it. These are all nations that, by themselves, cannot fulfill a whole tree. To this end, we believe that the best solution is to reform the British tree into a British Commonwealth tree. Our Air side already has Australian planes in, so why not the Ground Forces too?

 

Our Product

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1ZKe-jypwisIswnq2QYJo4LN1dPg-WGuoldvf-7tTI8Y/edit#gid=0

 

British Designation

British vehicles are designated the following: Self Propelled Anti Tank, Cruiser, Infantry, Armoured Car, Light and Self Propelled Anti Air. This gives it a different feel with the following roles:

Cruiser - Cavalry role, flanker, tank engager and reconnaissance

Self Propelled Anti Tank - Tank Destroyer and Ambusher

Infantry - Infantry support and heavy armour

Armoured Car - Recon and Flanking

Light - Recon, Paradrop tanks

Self Propelled Anti Air - Air defence, infantry support as needed

 

Do note that the British doctrine eventually led to the Universal Tank, which was intending to fulfill the Infantry and Cruiser roles. This is also present late tiers.

 

As we go along, descriptions on each vehicle will be linked here for you all to see, with our intended BR placement, giving a clear cut idea of what we wish to achieve with this. Please look to this section for descriptions of the vehicles below.

 

Our Original Post: (Documented Suggestion)

 

Edited by DoLhades
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In order to kick this off, here is the description for the Leyland Armoured Car.

 

 


The Leyland Armoured Car was an Irish armoured car that had a rather limited production run just before WW2. Only four were made between 1937 and 1939. The vehicle took the armoured cuperstructure of the Peerless Armoured Car and adapted it to a Leland-Terrier Lorry chassis. The hope was to create a cheap but durable armoured car for use by the Irish army since they realized that most of their AFVs were outdated and nearing the ends of their service life and they didn't have anywhere near enough funds for something expensive. The turret was the same one as on the Swedish L/60 Light Tank, and was armed with the 20mm Madsen. Its armour was at best 13mm thick. Its top road speed was 64km/h, with 4 forward gears and two reverse.

 

Here is the only survivor I know of out of the four that were built (some served till up to 1972 in non-reserve units, 1980 in reserve units.):

6291766881_2899dbd419_b.jpg

This surviving example at Bovington has been modified from the original. In the 1950s all four of the Leylands received a rather nice upgrade with a new engine (a Ford V8 (155hp) instead of the original Leyland Terrier 6 Cylinder (80hp)), new back tires, a new .30 cal Browning machine gun (and an additional one in the hull) replaced the .303 Madsen machine gun in the turret and it had a modified front hull (it now looked a lot like a Landsverk 180). One of the few things that did not receive an upgrade was the 20mm Madsen cannon, which remained unchanged. One of the best parts about this upgrade was that its maximum speed got increased to 72km/h with the new engine.

 

Here are images showing how the Leylands looked during WWII and the early post-war years before the 1950s modification:

05799.jpg

LeylandOrig_Front.jpg

ArmouredcarsIreland1941.jpg

In this image a Leyland and a Landsverk 180 are being serviced right next to each other. At numerous points in their service history the Leylands and the Landverks served in the same units, so this sight wasn't uncommon

 

Some sources:

http://www.warwheels.net/images/ACJfinal28.pdf

http://www.forgottenweapons.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/05/Aberdeen test of Madsen 7mm and 20mm.pdf
 

 

Edited by Mercedes4321
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The A7 Medium Tank series



medium_tank_A7_big.jpg

The A7 Medium Tank, one of the last medium tanks developed before the Cruiser Tank designation was adopted. Three versions were made, the E1, E2 and E3. The E1 and E2 were quite similar, with armour varying between 9-14mm in thickness and using a 120hp Armstrong-Siddley engine. The E3 brought the armour up so that it was 14mm all around as well as using twin A.E.C. CI Diesel engines that developed 252hp. The E3 weighed 18.2 tons while the E1 and E2 weighed just 14 tons. The turret of all three of them was armed with the QF 3 pounder. They all had a max speed of about 40km/h. The tanks proved to be mechanically unreliable and the tank was not accepted for production.

 

http://www.wwiivehicles.com/great-britain/vehicle/medium-tank/a7-medium-tank.asp

http://www.historyofwar.org/articles/weapons_medium_tank_A7.html

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Wonderful project! I once did something similar on the WoT forums, so I'll head on over there tonight and drag it up, see if there's anything on there that hasn't been added here already. Would love to see a nice listing of an image for each one on the list, as I don't recognise all of em!

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1 hour ago, TheFuzzieOne said:

Wonderful project! I once did something similar on the WoT forums, so I'll head on over there tonight and drag it up, see if there's anything on there that hasn't been added here already. Would love to see a nice listing of an image for each one on the list, as I don't recognise all of em!

 

We are planning exactly that ;)

We will be posting information on each vehicle as we go, with images.

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1 hour ago, TheFuzzieOne said:

Good stuff. I think the only one that particularly stands out to me as not being there is the Clan:

http://ftr.wot-news.com/2014/08/20/a29-clan-the-forgotten-cruiser/

 

But once I'm home from work, I'll take a bigger look through the lists of my own, point anything your way!

I'm not sure if we will add the A29. While it was an interesting design, it was never built as far as I know.

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The description for the Marmon-Herrington Mk IV and Mk IVF



Marmon-Herrington_MkIV_Armoured_Car_ex-G

The Marmon-Herrington Mk IV Armoured Car. An armoured car design produced in South Africa during WWII, this entry into the series was quite different from the previous three. Most features on the vehicle were new outside of the M-H 4x4 suspension and the Ford V-90 8 cylinder 95hp engine. The crew consists of three men; a commander, a gunner, and a driver. The new turret was armed with the QF 2 pounder AT gun, with 5 degrees of a gun depression and 20 degrees of gun elevation. Its turret traverse was about 16 degrees per second. The coaxial gun was initially a .303 Vickers LMG, but this was later replaced with a .30 cal Browning. Its maximum speed was 84 km/h. There were 4 forward gears and 1 reverse. Either a .50 cal Browning or a .30 cal browning was used for AA defense. The armour was very thin, only 12mm at best with many areas being around 6mm. In order to keep up with production orders a version based on the Ford F60L truck known as the Mk IVF was built as well, though it was barely distinguishable from a normal Mk IV and had all of the same characteristics.

 

http://www.warwheels.net/images/MarmonHerringtonMk4statsheet.pdf

http://www.warwheels.net/images/ACJFinal8.pdf

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i recently did research on my own and suggest some tank to be added into the game. feel free to check it out and leave me your comments. i am reading them all.
 

 

 

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On 11/04/2017 at 4:15 PM, Mercedes4321 said:

I'm not sure if we will add the A29. While it was an interesting design, it was never built as far as I know.

 

Ah I see, I'm not too familiar yet with WT's stance on vehicles having to have been built or not to be in the game. Were all the vehicles in game created in reality? Pretty sure at least some of them, especially amongst the planes, were?

 

If so, then I think we should at least list the available paper designs to them that they may not be aware of the details of.

 

I had look into my old thread, but on a brief glance I didn't see anything notable to bring over here that I didn't need to do further looking into. Will keep an eye out when I refresh my sources, ther emight be a couple obscure ones.

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You've got a nice list there, you could be missing some things though:

 

Tier One:

- A10E1: early variant of Cruiser II, mounting the Cruiser I turret, and has a sloped upper glacis

- A14

- Cruiser I CS

- Cruiser II: early turret with Vickers MG

- Cruiser IIA CS

- Cruiser III*

- Cruiser IVA and Cruiser IVA "late" (differs in mantlet design)

- Tetrarch with Little-John adapter

- Valentine III CS

 

In-regards to your Australian tanks, the name "Sentinel" only ever referred to the Mk. I:

- AC I "Sentinel": armed with a 2-Pdr

- AC IA "Sentinel": armed with a 6-Pdr

- AC IB "Sentinel": armed with a 25-Pdr

- AC III "Thunderbolt": armed with a 25-Pdr

- AC E1: armed with a duel 25-Pdr

- AC E1: armed with a 17-Pdr

- AC IV: armed with a 17-Pdr

- AC IVA: armed with a 25-Pdr

 

Also, you have the M113 FSV (mounting a Saladin turret) and M113 MSV (mounting a Scorpion turret) listed as Canadian vehicles, they should be Australian.

 

Edited by Jarms
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7 minutes ago, Jarms said:

You've got a nice list there, you could be missing some things though:

 

Tier One:

- Cruiser I CS

- Cruiser II (early turret with Vickers MG)

- Cruiser IIA CS

- Cruiser IVA and Cruiser IVA "late" (differs in mantlet design)

- Valentine III CS

- Tetrarch with Little-John adapter

 

In-regards to your Australian tanks, the name "Sentinel" only ever referred to the Mk. I:

- AC I "Sentinel" (2-Pdr)

- AC IA "Sentinel" (6-Pdr)

- AC IB "Sentinel" (25-Pdr)

- AC III "Thunderbolt" (25-Pdr)

- AC IV (17-Pdr)

 

The Issue with the Cruiser Mk I and II CS is that their gun only really had white phosphorous smoke shells and that was it. Even the HE was really just a white phosphorous smoke shell with a tiny amount of HE to give it a little bang.

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With the Puma coming and the implication that regular tanks are starting to run out and armoured cars being more frequent (okay a stretch, but still!), the one that most caught my eye for Britain so far was the Alvis Saladin. Looking at your original tech tree post, you've got it at 7.0, I'm curious as to why so high? What's the pen on it's gun?

 

From an initial look at the stats it's got a slower speed than the Puma (72kph, whether it could reach it is another question, as the Puma doesn't reach it's own 90kph top), is not spectacularly modern (1954), and has a 76mm gun. HESH / AP if I see properly? I would've expected a 76mm HESH round to only have about 90mm of pen going from the rest of the rounds in game, so I would've expected it to be more in the mid-tier area.

 

I'm also assuming that you haven't made any changes to it recently, because there's no way that the Saladin should be tiered higher than an RU-251 ;)

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The Saladin also could mount ATGMs, bear in mind.

 

The RU-251 is a good comparative though to judge a "non ATGM" version of the Saladin. While a great vehicle in real life, in pure "game terms" the stats that matter to WT don't match up to that era, unless there's something about it I've missed.

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Oh? I know wiki isn't always the best source but there's no mention of ATGM's at all on there or on tanks-encylopedia, they say AP/HESH/HE.

 

Saladin compared to RU-251 would have a weaker gun (I assume), hull breakable with less armour, no tank steering and lower speed, but would be a smaller target which works in it's favour. Guessing that the gun would have a lower velocity too.

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6 hours ago, Freyn said:

Oh? I know wiki isn't always the best source but there's no mention of ATGM's at all on there or on tanks-encylopedia, they say AP/HESH/HE.

 

Saladin compared to RU-251 would have a weaker gun (I assume), hull breakable with less armour, no tank steering and lower speed, but would be a smaller target which works in it's favour. Guessing that the gun would have a lower velocity too.

Neither Wiki or Tank-encyclopedia are particularly accurate on stuff like this, but a Saladin with ATGMs does exist.

5f3615696c5e5c85250a7a2240920c44.png

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9 minutes ago, Freyn said:

Ah, so it's an upgraded version with ATGM's, rather than it having them as standard. So we could get the non-ATGM version.

Why yes, that is entirely possible. I would like to see both, personally.

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On 5/19/2017 at 8:41 PM, Mercedes4321 said:

The Issue with the Cruiser Mk I and II CS is that their gun only really had white phosphorous smoke shells and that was it. Even the HE was really just a white phosphorous smoke shell with a tiny amount of HE to give it a little bang.

 

I was under the assumption that proper HE shells were available, but just weren't issued for one reason or another. Similar to 2-Pdr HE shell controversy, where HE shells were given to towed artillery but not the tanks. Was this not the case?

 

Also, I updated my prior post.

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38 minutes ago, Jarms said:

 

I was under the assumption that proper HE shells were available, but just weren't issued for one reason or another. Similar to 2-Pdr HE shell controversy, where HE shells were given to towed artillery but not the tanks. Was this not the case?

 

Also, I updated my prior post.

If they existed, I have found no evidence for them.

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Did Gaijin add any of the vehicles you suggested yet?

Edited by ImDoneFor

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2 minutes ago, ImDoneFor said:

Did Gaijin add any of the vehicles you suggester yet?

Yes.

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Just now, Mercedes4321 said:

Yes.

and what is it? the Vickers MBT mk.1?

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17 minutes ago, ImDoneFor said:

and what is it? the Vickers MBT mk.1?

Well this tree was made only shortly after the British ground forces were first announced, so most of the vehicles that have shown up on this tree after it was released already showed up on this tree before they arrived in game.

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