*dctpbpenn

ROC/Taiwanese M10 w/ Type 91 105 mm Howitzer

Should this tank be added?  

70 members have voted

  1. 1. Do you want this tank to be added in War Thunder?

    • Yes.
      65
    • No.
      5
  2. 2. If yes, then which nation you want it be?

    • Japan, as it used the Type 91 Howitzer which is a Japanese gun.
      35
    • United States, as this is a Taiwanese field modification of M10.
      21
    • International Tech Tree, this is what we need to have.
      14
    • No. I don't want it anyway.
      0
  3. 3. What should this tank's status be?

    • Premium
      29
    • Event Vehicle
      16
    • Regular vehicle
      25
    • Again, no.
      0


Greetings, tankers! With the introduction of the LVT A-4 ZiS-2 and Type 62 as special event vehicles in the American and Russian tech trees, respectively, I felt I had the grounds to suggest another Chinese beast: a Republic of China (ROC) modification of the M10 Tank Destroyer.

 

Please forgive any inaccuracies as English sources are scarce and limited.

 

After the conclusion Second Sino-Japanese War and the end of WWII as a whole, the Chinese Civil War between the Nationalists and the Communists resumed (or rather re-escalated). Attempting to force peace, the U.S. enacted an arms embargo in 1946. It failed spectacularly and was quickly lifted the following year. Almost immediately demilitarized M10s and other vehicles were transferred into service with the ROC Nationalist forces. However, with the original armament having been *sabotaged (they had been bought under the guise of being tractors) the Chinese had to improvise. At Shanghai in 1949 a "prototype" M10 was refitted with an ex-IJA Type 91 105 mm Howitzer (the same armament of the Type 1 Ho-Ni II SPG) and modified to include a .30 caliber bow machine gun. It also included a fully enclosed turret roof with crew hatches and lighter but more impact-resistant armor. Satisfied, an additional 16 units were converted, which were used to great effect in the Battle of Kinmen.

 

It is believed that these were largely removed from service or reconverted by the end of the 1950s. At least one survives today at Camp HuKuo in Taiwan, though most of the modifications have been removed and a dummy gun fitted to resemble an original M10 GMC for display purposes. The bow machine gun, however, is still fitted.

 

 

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From one of my sources:

Quote

This tank shows all the signs of having formerly been a HMC with the Japanese Type 91 howitzer. The wider aperture cut in the mantlet to accommodate the howitzer has been plated over and either a plain tube or a 76 mm gun M1 (from an M18?) installed.

 

Most details should be similar to the M10's original specifications (though sources note the top speed was slightly reduced to 48km/h instead of 51km/h). In War Thunder, I think it could be best fitted as a special event vehicle in the Japanese ground forces tech tree to help beef it up, or possibly in the American ground forces tech tree. I justify this by the placement of the LVT(A)-4 ZiS-2 in the American ground forces tech tree (a modification of an American design which did not see U.S. service). Because it synthesizes U.S. and Japanese equipment, I could see it in either tree. Below are some of the sources I was able to find (much is in Chinese):

 

http://www.tanks-encyclopedia.com/ww2/US/M10_Wolverine.php

http://the.shadock.free.fr/Surviving_M10_GMC.pdf

http://blair-military.blogspot.fr/2013/03/m10-wolverine.html

http://www.dahaijun.com/html/baike/2014/0221/8536.html

http://wot.tgbus.com/news/efzl/180293.shtml

 

I hope I will have your support. :salute:

Edited by *dctpbpenn

SAUBER_KH7 (Posted )

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Open for discussion. :salute:

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As much as I'm against special event vehicles, I voted yes to get it into the game first. I voted for it to be added to the US tree because, according to very little that I read about their history, they fought against the Japanese in WW2.

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Hi all,

 

interesting vehicle:

 

i voted for japan (because the gun is japanese and USA give other tanks to Japan too - as M24/M4A3/M41) - as we do not have a chinese tree and it would be seen as a chinese tank it would added to the Soviet tree. The soviet groundforces (and USA) already have good HE tanks on Battlerating 3.3, so i think it would be a good addition for Japan.

 

 

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Its cool, wouldn't want it as a event vehicle though.

Edited by Josh_Yong
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After reading some articles about National Chinese tanks after the Chinese Civil War, I found some of them really special and appealing to the game. We've got Type 62 and Communist LVT A-4 Zis-2 modification, why not give Taiwan a chance? I thought about this, and today I introduce this special vehicle.

This, is an excellent vehicle on par with the German StuH 42 G, which is the M10 Wolverine with Japanese 105mm Howitzer. 

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More images:

Spoiler

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M10+Kuomintanb.jpg

 

The tank itself is basically a M10 Wolverine hull, along with a minor modified truret and a Japanese 105mm Howitzer. 

Thanks to @Mai_Waffentrager who provided information to me, this 105mm Howitzer can shoot

  • Type 95 APHE, with 83mm penetartion at 100m.
  • Type 91 HEAT, with 120mm penetration. 


This means that this gun have the potential to play out like StuH's 105mm Howitzer, which can beat moderately armored tanks with its 105mm APHE shell, while being able to take on heavier targets with the HEAT ammunition. This makes this tank suits greatly at 3.3-3.7 BR range, which it can be played out like a little KV-2 at its BR.

More information could be found on the Japanese book in the source list below.

One of the engineer of this M10 Modification has also written a book which includes some information about this tank(In Trad. Chinese), and can be found in the source list below, too.

If you're interested on the history of this tank, you can read it below:

Spoiler

The year is 1948, where National Chinese suffered losses and fought hard during the cold blooded, emotionless civil war.

They are in need of all sorts of weaponry, especially tanks. They managed to get 34 M10 "Wolverine" tank destroyers from the Americans.

Sadly, the tank is demilitarized and the M7 is no longer a M7. Everything else turns out to be working fine, so the nationalists decided to modify this tank into combat-capable situation. However, they never managed modify it before the war ended, and it never saw combat.

When Nationalists retreated to Taiwan, the project didn't stop, and is still continued. The project was passed to the 61st Arsenal for more modifications. According to the engineer Chén hù, he managed to modify the turret to a good condition, where the crews can enter and leave freely on this vehicle. The tank was a great success, and 16 of them are converted with the similar scheme.

The tanks were all given to 44th Brigade of the 4th Corps of the Nationalist Army. During 1950, 1951 and 1952, this tank entered parades, and was greatly appreciated by the leader Chiang Kai-shek. After 1952, the tank was however considered outdated as more American support came to assist Taiwan. As a result, this modification of M10 Wolverine can no longer be seen, and eventually went to the scrapyard.

Luckily, some of the tanks managed to survive to today, and went on a display.

Unluckily, all of those have its 105mm Howitzer removed and is mounted with a "fake cannon" which makes it looks like the original M10 Wolverine.

As a result, this tank becomes what we can only see in their books and pictures taken by the crew, who tested, drove, and photographed them.


Specs of this tank:

Weapon: Type 91 Field Howitzer x1
M1919/M2HB MG, as seen in the third photo
Crew: 5 (Estimation)
Weight: 29.6-30T (Estimation due to different gun size)

*Other things are pretty much identical to the original M10 Wolverine. Check in-game stat for details.

Source used(All in Chinese):
http://archive.is/9GWr#selection-505.1-559.6
http://blog.sina.com.cn/s/blog_e5d8c2d60102vspj.html
Book: "Thunderous Firearms - Nationalist Artillery Legends", written by Chén hù ( 霹靂神火-中華民國火炮傳奇 陳笏著)  - ISSN 0258-2341

And for the Type 91 Howitzer:
Book: "Artillery, Field guns and Mountain guns of the Japanese Army - In-depth investigation of Japanese Ground Equipment", written by Sayama jirō (佐山二郎 日本陸軍の火砲 野砲 山砲―日本の陸戦兵器徹底研究) - ISBN 978-4769827450

Edited by kololz
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SAUBER_KH7 (Posted )

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Open for Discussion.:salute:

 

Please remember to tag a prefix next time as it helps us categorize suggestions later down the road.

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We really need to add that into the japan tree, their barely adequate amount of tanks bothers me quite a bit.

Would work well in 3.0/3.3

medal

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Can you add the "no" option for the #2 and #3 questions? Bc if someone did not want this tank in game canot vote normaly.

Btw +1 from me ( as a Japanese prem ).

Edited by IIPzgreen
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1+ For Japanese ground forces since US already has M4 105.

This vehicle should come along with Ho-Ni 2, both have the same gun.

jap%20typ%201%20ho-ni%202%204.jpg

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