lebanesewarrior

RU251 OP for 6.7

245 posts in this topic

3 minutes ago, Desolator7 said:

 

Anecdotal evidence is not real evidence.  Saying solid shot is OP is a bad joke lol.

Solid Shot =/= Solid Shot

 

AP, APC, APBC, APCBC, APCR, APDS and APFSDS are all solid shots but very different. Count in that low calibre solid shot works way different than higher calibres and it gets even more differentiated.

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3 minutes ago, Desolator7 said:

 

Anecdotal evidence is not real evidence.  Saying solid shot is OP is a bad joke lol.

Everyone getting killed by the Ru and calling it OP is using Anecdotal evidence. If they bought it they would see that it isn't op at all. 

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52 minutes ago, *AceArchangel said:

If someone is saying that a vehicle is over performing which is being stated here statistically it would show that yes it is a vehicle that is better then all of the rest at its tier, should the W/R and K/D of a vehicle in game influence a BR adjustment is an academic argument, but it can and should be used in regards to understanding whether a vehicle is overperforming. If it were OP it would take little amounts of skill to be good at playing that is not the case with the RU-251 and the statistics prove this.

negative, WR/KD should never take into account for a tank OP or not

a easy to use OP tank will have sky high WR/KD, but a tank with low WR/KD does not implied it is not way better than tank of same BR, a tank with high skill ceiling would always end up with low WR/KD in a normally distribute population, but it can also be very powerful, only way i see WR/KD can taken as a indicator would be comparing two similar tank under similar condition such as fighting the similar enemy, fighting with similar teammate, which would never be a case in WT

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11 minutes ago, Time4Tea said:

I know solid AP has been a long-standing issue and many suggestions and bug reports have been put forward about it for a couple of years now with no change. However, BR changes are a lot more frequent and I'm trying to keep another problem off of the proverbial British plate. The IS-6 is a brawler and so I have more chance of hitting crewmembers and vital components at closer ranges, I can not do the same as easily with the RU-251, if i miss by an inch it often turns the said module or crewmember yellow. I am using my experience in British tanks as part of the argument for the RU-251's BR being raised.

 

I think it was less a case of my original argument shifting and more to do with the arguments that sprang from this one. We got wrapped up in comparisons and who's opinion carries more weight. The problem is that we think differently and that neither of us have really conceded to any points. Like I said, it is easier to get a tank's BR changed than it is to get fixes for British tanks at the moment (sans challenger armour. Still 14mm on the sides and 63.5 on the front) or get better BR compression (I think the 0.7 BR spread suggestion was denied recently). Consider that if solid shot were to be fixed then I could concede my point, British tanks could annihilate pesky RU-251s from afar and it's BR could come back down. :)

I do want solid shot to be fixed I don't agree with the RU-251 being uptiered do to how it conflicts with just the British tanks, although I see your points on the British becoming more competitive and on that, we can agree.:good:

Edited by *AceArchangel
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16 minutes ago, *AceArchangel said:

I do want solid shot to be fixed I don't agree with the RU-251 being uptiered do to how it conflicts with just the British tanks, although I see your points on the British becoming more competitive and on that, we can agree.:good:

Took us quite a few pages but at least we found some common ground :DD

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8 minutes ago, Time4Tea said:

Took us quite a few pages but at least we found some common ground :DD

Quite an impressive 7 or so pages, and the debate was nice (ugly at times) but it got all the gears turning. Clarity and understanding after a long clouded clash of beliefs though is far better.

Edited by *AceArchangel
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5 hours ago, *SweetRollsBeGone said:

Everyone getting killed by the Ru and calling it OP is using Anecdotal evidence. If they bought it they would see that it isn't op at all. 

 

Compare it to the T92 or M56 (also 6.7)

That's not anecdotal. That's data.

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2 minutes ago, *SweetRollsBeGone said:

I see people with better stats in both of those tanks than in the Ru.


You can't compare win rates yet... it's new.

Compare attributes.

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2 minutes ago, *SweetRollsBeGone said:

I see people with better stats in both of those tanks than in the Ru.

People with those two probably had a lot of practice mastering flanking and light tanks with the Hellcat and US light tanks. 

 

I surely did, but I only started getting kills with them after I unlocked shells other than APCR. 

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I do not know if the M56 HEATFS of the M56/M47/Type 61 act the same. but the one of the Ru 251 acts very random, it seems to bounce very very very often when it simply shouldnt and when it pens sometimes, it does not create any shrapnel or the shrapnel just sticks to the path of the shell actually actink like a simple laser beam... I literally put 14 penetrating shots on a T34 which many bounced despite it being impossible according to the stat card or penetrated but dealt literally 0 damage turning some things and crew yellow... After 17 sehlls or so, I ammoracked it finally. (this were 1700 meters shot on Kursk, the T34 was slightly sideways and was not facing me directly)

 

Either way, the survivability of the T29-T34 is way to high anyway. I think they should rework the crew Knock out mechanics, tanks with 6 crews are way to survivable. 50% of the crew dead Inside the tank should equal in crew knockout.

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5 minutes ago, Tantor57 said:

I do not know if the M56 HEATFS of the M56/M47/Type 61 act the same. but the one of the Ru 251 acts very random, it seems to bounce very very very often when it simply shouldnt and when it pens sometimes, it does not create any shrapnel or the shrapnel just sticks to the path of the shell actually actink like a simple laser beam... I literally put 14 penetrating shots on a T34 which many bounced despite it being impossible according to the stat card or penetrated but dealt literally 0 damage turning some things and crew yellow... After 17 sehlls or so, I ammoracked it finally. (this were 1700 meters shot on Kursk, the T34 was slightly sideways and was not facing me directly)

 

Either way, the survivability of the T29-T34 is way to high anyway. I think they should rework the crew Knock out mechanics, tanks with 6 crews are way to survivable. 50% of the crew dead Inside the tank should equal in crew knockout.

 

You shot a T34 Seventeen times without doing any damage? Did he just sit there and stare at you laughing?
Or did you disable it repeatedly in order to shoot it for at least 2.5 minutes?
(The story doesn't pass smell test.)

HEAT rounds do act like lasers, It's no different with the other 90mm HEAT rounds.  (Even the 105/120 aren't very impressive post pen..  they just have ridiculous pen, negating armor.)

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Your all saying attributes, but i'd say 90% of the people in-game right now who own the Ru 251 are negative, maybe 50% ridiculously negative. Most of the are experienced players level 50 and up. Skill is everything in light tanks. If you aren't smart, you'll do poorly. If you know how to use the map, and environment to your advantage you MAY do well. I believe as of right now I have 253 kills to 108 deaths in my Ru. My friend who is 50 levels higher than me and has the Ru hates it, he thinks it is terrible. He is always killed in it when he uses it, and always kills it when he doesn't use germany. Now i'm not saying I'm amazing at Warthunder tanks, but I am smart. He is a great player, has stats in tanks, as an example has 1500 tank kills in his strv, and 300 deaths. In his T29 he is 2000 kills to 500 deaths, and things like the T92 and M56 he is also wildly positive. He says that the Ru is slightly above average but that is it. After reading what people are saying, it seems like there is a massive divide between players on where the Ru should be, and whether it is OP. Quite frankly, I don't believe you have the right to call something OP until you have it and have at least 50 matches in it. I've seen people say a tank is OP when they are negative in another "OP" tank. I believe that these people truly should have no say in instances like this.

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5 minutes ago, Livewyr7 said:

 

You shot a T34 Seventeen times without doing any damage? Did he just sit there and stare at you laughing?
Or did you disable it repeatedly in order to shoot it for at least 2.5 minutes?
(The story doesn't pass smell test.)

HEAT rounds do act like lasers, It's no different with the other 90mm HEAT rounds.  (Even the 105/120 aren't very impressive post pen..  they just have ridiculous pen, negating armor.)

I think you may have missed the point where he said his enemy was 1700m away. I would to see you pinpoint hit modules at 1700m distance, especially when the target is not directly facing you and the modules thus dont line up perfectly behind each other.

Edited by Stahlvormund101
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2 minutes ago, *SweetRollsBeGone said:

Your all saying attributes, but i'd say 90% of the people in-game right now who own the Ru 251 are negative, maybe 50% ridiculously negative. Most of the are experienced players level 50 and up. Skill is everything in light tanks. If you aren't smart, you'll do poorly. If you know how to use the map, and environment to your advantage you MAY do well. I believe as of right now I have 253 kills to 108 deaths in my Ru. My friend who is 50 levels higher than me and has the Ru hates it, he thinks it is terrible. He is always killed in it when he uses it, and always kills it when he doesn't use germany. Now i'm not saying I'm amazing at Warthunder tanks, but I am smart. He is a great player, has stats in tanks, as an example has 1500 tank kills in his strv, and 300 deaths. In his T29 he is 2000 kills to 500 deaths, and things like the T92 and M56 he is also wildly positive. He says that the Ru is slightly above average but that is it. After reading what people are saying, it seems like there is a massive divide between players on where the Ru should be, and whether it is OP. Quite frankly, I don't believe you have the right to call something OP until you have it and have at least 50 matches in it. I've seen people say a tank is OP when they are negative in another "OP" tank. I believe that these people truly should have no say in instances like this.

 

Have your friend drive around the T92 and see what he thinks of it.
2 Less HP/Ton
15mph slower
Less armor (yes, actually has less armor..  HMG can kill it from front)

3.3 second faster reload
100mm less pen


 

5 minutes ago, Stahlvormund101 said:

I think you may have missed the point where he said his enemy was 1700m away. I would to see you pinpoint hit modules at 1700m distance, especially when the target is not directly facing you and the modules thus dont line up perfectly behind each other.

 

And the T34 didn't shoot back or move in 2.5 minutes of being peppered?

(And let's not lose sight of the fact that he was throwing penetrating shots against a heavy tank at 1700 meters...)

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5 minutes ago, Livewyr7 said:

 

You shot a T34 Seventeen times without doing any damage? Did he just sit there and stare at you laughing?
Or did you disable it repeatedly in order to shoot it for at least 2.5 minutes?
(The story doesn't pass smell test.)

HEAT rounds do act like lasers, It's no different with the other 90mm HEAT rounds.  (Even the 105/120 aren't very impressive post pen..  they just have ridiculous pen, negating armor.)

I've just now hit a T29s ammo 4 times. First I disable his gun, then hit his ammo. No detonation. Then I hit his gun again, and splash damage of the HEATFS hit his ammo. Nothing happened. Then again I hit his ammo. No dice. Then I hit his gun again, and his ammo. This isn't a one off. And it seems that for some reason the HEATFS really is off when it comes to killing American and British tanks. Not Russian tanks. 90% of russian tanks I hit in the ammo blow up instantly. When I hit American tanks, i'd say only 1 in 10 are actually ammo-racked. British tanks are even more infuriating. They bounce. A lot. off of their sides, there upper mantle (which according to the stat cards should be physically impossible). I've had comets bounce My HEATFS shells, it just shouldn't happen. HEATFS is designed that post-pen, molten-metal is injected into weak-points in order to detonate the ammo, or kill crew-members. This works fine against the OH-MIGHTY russian "bias" tanks, but not the other two nations. If i take out my Type-61 though, the HEATFS ammo racks 90% of the time on any tank I hit. 

 

So i'll say this. Fix the RU 251s HEATFS and then, THEN raise it's br to 7.0-7.3, but only then.

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1 minute ago, *SweetRollsBeGone said:

I've just now hit a T29s ammo 4 times. First I disable his gun, then hit his ammo. No detonation. Then I hit his gun again, and splash damage of the HEATFS hit his ammo. Nothing happened. Then again I hit his ammo. No dice. Then I hit his gun again, and his ammo. This isn't a one off. And it seems that for some reason the HEATFS really is off when it comes to killing American and British tanks. Not Russian tanks. 90% of russian tanks I hit in the ammo blow up instantly. When I hit American tanks, i'd say only 1 in 10 are actually ammo-racked. British tanks are even more infuriating. They bounce. A lot. off of their sides, there upper mantle (which according to the stat cards should be physically impossible). I've had comets bounce My HEATFS shells, it just shouldn't happen. HEATFS is designed that post-pen, molten-metal is injected into weak-points in order to detonate the ammo, or kill crew-members. This works fine against the OH-MIGHTY russian "bias" tanks, but not the other two nations. If i take out my Type-61 though, the HEATFS ammo racks 90% of the time on any tank I hit. 

 

So i'll say this. Fix the RU 251s HEATFS and then, THEN raise it's br to 7.0-7.3, but only then.

 

That's HEAT-FS in general.  The 7.3 M47 and 7.7 M48 both use that same round... and it does that for them too. 

HEAT-FS post pen is rather weak, but penetrating at all is infinitely more damaging than bouncing.

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1 minute ago, Livewyr7 said:

 

That's HEAT-FS in general.  The 7.3 M47 and 7.7 M48 both use that same round... and it does that for them too. 

HEAT-FS post pen is rather weak, but penetrating at all is infinitely more damaging than bouncing.

You just ignored like half of my posts mentioning my usage of other tanks that use HEATFS. They all have far better HEATFS than the RUs. They may have less penetration, but they actually do what they were designed to do more the RUS rounds do. My American tanks that use HEATFS don't bounce off of armour they shouldn't do. They ammo rack when they should do. My japanese tanks ammo does what it is supposed to do.

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Ru is not OP. It is only fastest, with best ammo low br tank. No it is not pay to win . Not at all. I think you people smoke too much. No it is not like Gajin is moving to pay to win model. This tank is not op as like kt2 wouldnt be op in 1941. You can flank it and kill it. Guys why to grind for top tir tanks when you can buy one.

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