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Awesome gameplay improvement towards Periscope/Optic view


Vote to make Optics/periscope and situational awareness great again!   

68 members have voted

  1. 1. Do you agree with everything i described on the situational awareness and should be in the game?

    • Yes!
    • No. (must justify your reasons in the comment section)
    • Nooo, because my favorite tank will be useless now :'(.
  2. 2. If the MG is mounted on or inside his hatch, Should the commander/machine gunner/ radio operator have the right use the MG? As in aiming through the iron sights. That also includes the reloading action too!

    • Ohhh yeah, this is gonna be fun!
    • no. (why not? )
    • nooo, my favorite tank doesn't have one :(.
  3. 3. Should the commander be forced to get out of the hatch in order to use the binoculars? ( the commander will turn his head/body if he is looking at the other direction.

    • Yes!!! it's unrealistic as it is right now.
    • no (why not?)
    • Noooooo, i don't want my commander killed when im looking for tanks far away :'(.
  4. 4. Since you agreed that the commander can see outside, do you agree that the Driver, Machine Gunner, Radio Operator should be allowed to get out of the hatch if their tank allows it?

    • Yes! this will improve my situational awareness.
    • No. (why not?)
    • Nooooo, i don't wanna get shot like how i kill M56 scorpions/M42 duster easily.
  5. 5. Should gaijin model the periscope/optic/ guns correctly instead of a blacked out shade around the object?

    • yes! it feels like im in a prison hot box when i see those black shade
    • no. (why not?)


Hi, im here to give Gaijin a unique suggestion towards to realisim.  This may not be applied for AB but it should definitely be applied for RB and SIM.  

Once in a while i see mods or players state that it would take forever to render the interior of a tank and it's useless.  While i agree it's complicated and time consuming to build the interior of our tanks but i disagree with the fact it's useless. I suggest that you make the optics/periscope more visable and also see other periscope if they have them. That will force you to design the interior tank enough to visually see the actual periscope part or optics. 

So my pitch is we make periscopes/optics/head out of out the hatch useful. Some would say that we already have that but i sort of disagree. I look at our view ports/optics/periscopes and for me it's half-**** and almost all tanks are the same. Gaijin is capable of doing great things, we just gotta show them what the customers look forward to. Now to the strong details

 

°commanders!

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When we use our binoculars, we are suppose to be out of that hatch like you see in the pictures and you get a clear view of your surroundings. Also when you're using 3rd person view in SIM battle, it can get alittle weird.  The commander isn't always in the center of the hatch and it moves around when you're turning the turret.  Also the hatch is closed when you're using binos or 3rd person view. If the player wants to do third person view or use binos, then the commander should come of the hatch.  If the commander wants to check his surroundings without exposing himself then he will use the periscopes like the picture below. 

DZZ_7422.thumb.jpg.424818b3beeb1a01243d7t23_turret2.JPG.a41fa06bda8df8712a95979c

This will give the player more realism and spotting would be hard without getting killed by machine guns. 

Now there are a few tanks that have a MG directly mounted to the commander's hatch.  Such as the M18 here.mpc3Oqt.jpg.dc6fa05b93a5af6e0a416dbfa858320px-M18_Hellcat_showing_USA_Number.jpg

For commanders that have access to MGs like that should have the right aim their machine guns seperately from the main gun. By aiming, i mean use the actual iron sights and kill all the nazi commanders/drivers or other heads sticking out lol. Also, those who do have access to those MG, give them the option to "disconnect" their hands from the MG so they can either duck/use binos or check surroundings faster without the heavy MG slowing you down. Also if you check out the M48, M60, M60a1 or T92..it will get very interesting. 

 

°Gunners!

 

I would like to suggest that gunners have the same capabilites as the commander IF the tank allows it.  Some gunners in certain tanks only have the scope for their main gun.  However there are other tanks out there that have a periscope AND an optic scope  for the gun. Here you go. BN-KM545_0929fm_J_20150925180525.jpg.ba2

You can see that the periscope is under that rail and the scope is towards the right. Since you already modeled the M18/jackson/m56/duster/ etc interior, i think the commander/gunner should have the right to be able to look at the inside of the turret. 

T54_Training_Parola_Tank_Museum_8.thumb.

now when i said periscope don't have zoom, i wasn't talking about this one.  Instead, i was  actually talking about the one next to that zooming periscope. There are certain tanks that have these special periscope for commanders and also gunners too. t23_turret2.JPG.a41fa06bda8df8712a95979c

see the periscope infront of the hatch? that is the gunner's periscope.  However the tiger doesn't have one as you can see here. Hell even the Machine Gunner doesn't have one. Which means the gunner doesn't know what to shoot at except where the commander tells him.  tiger-tank-23.jpg.85d749d820021cf7bd4e04

That is why this suggestion is very important, not every tank is the same and the situation awareness is very different compared to others. However in the game they are all the same, that gives the limited tanks a big advantage compared to tanks with lots of periscope/hatch/optic options. 

 

°Drivers!

 

I would suggest gaijin to let drivers feel the breeze as they did in WW2. A lot of the tank driver's stick their head out for 2 reasons.  Its hot as hell in there but also to get a clear view of whats going on.  I'll show you. 

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As you can see, they are able to see everything  and keeps doing that because they are sick of seeing this all day till bullets start flying around. ffcz2u.jpg.0a8d66925bd77ee29ed35177f9974

 

Some drivers only have one periscope, there are others that have more than one  periscopes such as these tanks. 58b0a05b857e7_T924.jpg.b714db411958cb4e858b0a0585ec29_t923.jpg.70d22289aa4c40608news-518_1.jpg.4041df8a1c38f4b77bf283a7e9666349000_b24726b8c8_b.thumb.jpg.2a401f4e01b4512dfc8743e7e5c2a1ded771c4.jpg.c94

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°SUMMARY

- Give the player the option to use their tank's periscope and optics realistically yet effectively.  

- allow the option to get your head out for a clearer view and use binos if your tank came with one. 

- If the commander/loader/gunner have a Machine Gun mounted directly on his hatch, he should be able to use it.  

 

What do you guys think? Yay or Nay? 

 

 

 

just remember that ever optic is different  such as the view size, clarity, zoom and protection. 

rare-binocular-tpku-2b-tank-periscope-russian-soviet-army-military-optic-sight-c40d249ddb26750d31a36ce880fcdc7d.jpgM6PERISCOPE_4.jpg.d6955fa4bddd3f93688d9e9921065_1_x.jpg.6e7aba9696c6b7e9fc2b56c7

 

Edited by *Baconator100012

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Its certainly an interesting concept but people shouldn't be forced to have their crew poke their heads out. In a combat situation the tank crew would be "buttoned up" only the TC's hatch would be open to allow the TC to occasionally take a peek ect. 

 

I wonder if this would be something suited for RB or SB?

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10 minutes ago, Ghost_Rider12 said:

Its certainly an interesting concept but people shouldn't be forced to have their crew poke their heads out. In a combat situation the tank crew would be "buttoned up" only the TC's hatch would be open to allow the TC to occasionally take a peek ect. 

I wouldn't say "force" to stick your head out of the hatch 24/7. It's an optional thing where if you need more view than a block of periscope the you press a few buttons and look around.  Then you press a few buttons to get back inside. 

 

If you need to use your binoculars then the commander do need to get out.  If you want use your MG then your commander/gunner/radio operator or machine gunner needs to get out and shoot the gun. 

 

....ETC ETC. 

10 minutes ago, Ghost_Rider12 said:

 

I wonder if this would be something suited for RB or SB?

Thats basically what i said in the beginning of the suggestion...

 

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Just now, *Baconator100012 said:

I wouldn't say "force" to stick your head out of the hatch 24/7. It's an optional thing where if you need more view than a block of periscope the you press a few buttons and look around.  Then you press a few buttons to get back inside.

 

right ok.

 

1 minute ago, *Baconator100012 said:

If you want use your MG then your commander/gunner/radio operator or machine gunner needs to get out and shoot the gun.

 

That wouldn't apply to all tanks though for example Chieftain (in RL) only the TC has a hatch mounted 7.62mg.

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Does this suggestion include 2-player controlled vehicles, tank interiors, MM-organized pickup squads, team commanders/platoon/squad leaders, and integrated squad/teamwide voicechat*? 

 

Cuz' IMHO increased spatial awareness, closely coordinated teamwork, and specific communication between all units of what is going on around the battlefield are what makes for the best tactical experience in any combat game. :wink: 

 

 

 

*(or an alternative text-to-speech radio messaging system via chat for players uncomfortable, unable, or unfamiliar with English and Russian)

Edited by Results45
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23 minutes ago, Ghost_Rider12 said:

 

That wouldn't apply to all tanks though for example Chieftain (in RL) only the TC has a hatch mounted 7.62mg.

That is EXACTLY my point, not every tank operate the same way and it shouldn't in the game.  As i also said in the suggestion under the tiger, i said that those who have greater visibility in their tank will have a better advantage over someone with limited visibilty.

Edited by *Baconator100012
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2 minutes ago, Results45 said:

Does this suggestion include tank interiors, MM-organized pickup squads, team commanders/platoon/squad leaders, and integrated squad/teamwide voicechat*? 

 

 

*(or an alternative text-to-speech radio messaging system via chat for players uncomfortable, unable, or unfamiliar with English and Russian)

uh? none of the above...  well partially the tank interior... basically i want to be able to see the periscope and you can move your head closer to the periscope/optic as how you can move your head in the airplane's cockpit. 

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1 minute ago, *Baconator100012 said:

uh? none of the above...  well partially the tank interior... basically i want to be able to see the periscope and you can move your head closer to the periscope/optic as how you can move your head in the airplane's cockpit. 

 

Like Arma then?

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13 minutes ago, *Baconator100012 said:

That is EXACLY my point, not every tank operate the same way and it shouldn't in the game.  As i also said in the suggestion under the tiger, i said that those who have greater visibility in their tank will have a better advantage over someone with limited visibilty.

 

Aw dang, I got excited when I saw the "situational awareness" part of the title.

 

Raisable periscopes, more crew animations, interiors, and vehicle functions will be fun new additions though :yes_yes_yes:

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14 minutes ago, Results45 said:

 

Aw dang, I got excited when I saw the "situational awareness" part of the title.

Since i go shooting at the range a lot, my father who was a Marine would talk about situational awareness alot.  So that is basically the way i look at it. 

Quote

Raisable periscopes, more crew animations, interiors, and vehicle functions will be fun new additions though :yes_yes_yes:

That is definitely whats poppin in this suggestion :). i would definitely love to man up the M2 Browning on that M18 Hellcat!

7 minutes ago, Ghost_Rider12 said:

 

I quite like how Arma does it so if its anywhere near I'm sold :D

If gaijin has the manpower and time to build the interior of every tank then im sold too.  If that isn't the case the i would just make it a limited interior modeling.

 

 

Edited by *Baconator100012

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2 hours ago, Ghost_Rider12 said:

 

 

1 hour ago, *Baconator100012 said:

If gaijin has the manpower and time to build the interior of every tank then im sold too.  If that isn't the case the i would just make it a limited interior modeling.

 

Well technically with a staff of 200+ devs and paid staff, they do have the manpower capable of doing so (though a little overambitious IMO, Cloud Imperium making Star Citizen with has 50% more devs completing functional multicrew first-person interiors for all their ships in addition to alternative game modes and seamless whole planets with hand-crafted locations).

 

2 hours ago, Ghost_Rider12 said:

I quite like how Arma does it so if its anywhere near I'm sold :D

 

Simpler version of Arma (Squad):

Even Phly plays squad now......:D :p:

 

.

Edited by Results45
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1 hour ago, Results45 said:

 

 

Well technically with a staff of 200+ devs and paid staff, they do have the manpower capable of doing so (Cloud Imperium making Star Citizen with only 30% more devs creates complete functional multicrew first-person interiors for all their ships in addition to alternative game modes and seamless whole planets with hand-crafted locations).

 

200 is alot but with 100s of suggestions day in and day out, there are also lots bug reports.  I think 200 people would be enough for war thunder only. Though with 4 different games.. that will slow down the process and the quality. 

1 hour ago, Results45 said:

 

Simpler version of Arma (Squad):

Even Phly plays squad now......:D :p:

  Reveal hidden contents

.

Lol, Phly and Baron is probably my favorite war thunder player to watch on youtube.  

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5 minutes ago, *Baconator100012 said:

 

200 is alot but with 100s of suggestions day in and day out, there are also lots bug reports.  I think 200 people would be enough for war thunder only. Though with 4 different games.. that will slow down the process and the quality. 

 

Star Conflict, Crossout, and Enlisted are being developed by partner studios (Gaijin only develops another 2 mobile RTS games).

 

As with the over emphasis on new vehicles right now, instead of rushing development, Gaijin should be more transparent

and recruit the modding playerbase to make-up for details like vehicles functions, UI/MM/economy optimization, map gameplay objectives, bug fixes, and other game mechanics.

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19 minutes ago, Results45 said:

 

Star Conflict, Crossout, and Enlisted are being developed by partner studios (Gaijin only develops another 2 mobile RTS games).

 

As with the over emphasis on new vehicles right now, instead of rushing development, Gaijin should be more transparent

and recruit the modding playerbase to make-up for details like vehicles functions, UI/MM/economy optimization, map gameplay objectives, bug fixes, and other game mechanics.

As long as war thunder is their primary priority, then im all good. 

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I voted "Yes" for everything but the last question. Not because I oppose the full modelling of tank interiors (quite the opposite, I loved playing Red October), but because I wouldn't mind the blackness in favor of fast development, just as it was for bomber cockpits.

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41 minutes ago, GuiRitter said:

I voted "Yes" for everything but the last question. Not because I oppose the full modelling of tank interiors (quite the opposite, I loved playing Red October), but because I wouldn't mind the blackness in favor of fast development, just as it was for bomber cockpits.

 

So you're saying......finish all the trees and integrate more game modes or realistic objectives in existing modes before adding the finishing touches?

Edited by Results45
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7 hours ago, GuiRitter said:

I voted "Yes" for everything but the last question. Not because I oppose the full modelling of tank interiors (quite the opposite, I loved playing Red October), but because I wouldn't mind the blackness in favor of fast development, just as it was for bomber cockpits.

i know what you mean, though as if you read a few the comments here.  i said you should just be able to see the periscope or optics.  Your vision will be limited as how they limit the bomber cockpits. However i also said if gaijin want to do a full model then go ahead but for now just model what is important.  Such as the hatch and the periscope under the hatch.  See the door open when you choose to open it.  Also most importantly be able to operate the gun like a first person shooter. That includes the amination of the reloading.  That should be easy since American tank's MG standards were either M2 browning or M1919 Browning.  The Nazi just had the MG42 and the russians had.. i forgot what it was called. 

 

You wanna know what was weird? when i was using the Binos in my M18, i was able to look at the commander's face.... that is weird.  If gaijin implement this, this will correct every visual visibilty on our tanks. 

Edited by *Baconator100012
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C, mon guys lets keep it up..  if we pass this to the developers, it will fix the Invisible tank problem!! pretty please? :D

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5 hours ago, Jan_Gustl_WT said:

Its a great idea. I support it +1 .

Thanks mate, there will be more premium suggestions like this when im ready to do another :). Hint, supply trucks but mostly about infantry/anti-tank gunners/POW etc invading towards to a headquater/flag and defends it after you cap the flag.  when capping another flag, you have to kill every infantry/ground units in order to cap the flag. This will make the game last longer and be more fun. 

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I really like the idea but i think it is a little to much for this game. in my opinion a change like this should be a complete change and then you need also the real optics for the gunner. that would need the FOV and the magnification for every tank. same as the Optical sight reticule pattern to make it perfect. 

in such cases i have to say you either go 100% or leave it as it is. 

in summary i like the idea but i have the feeling that then the discussion will go back to OP-Tanks cause of their optics.

 

Spoiler
Originally Posted by wokelly
I originally posted this in the other thread but frankly I have seen on many different forums this general lack of understanding of optics on WWII tanks, so I figure it deserves its own post since I spent a bit of time writing it.

Telescopic sights is something most people don't know a huge amount about or there are lots of myths about. One of the big ones I hear and is that allied sights were inferior in magnification to German ones. Allied optics for the most part were not inferior in magnification to German ones. Originally the British 2 pounder gun and associated tanks had a 1.9x magnified sight, which was somewhat inferior to the 2.4x magnified German sights on tanks, which may be the cause of this myth. However American and British tank sights (6 pounder, 75mm, 17 pounder etc) had a 3x magnified sight which was slightly superior in zoom to the 2.4x magnified German sight on more of their common tanks such as the Mark III and Mark IV.

Only certain German tanks had the fancy adjustable zoom optics that had both a 2.5x magnified and 5x magnified option for the sight, mainly on the late production Tigers (originally had 2.4x) and Panthers, and probably other late war ones. The StuG Assault gun series had a 5x magnified direct fire sight it retained but it was not adjustable. However several allied tanks had high powered optics as well. The Sherman Firefly was equipped with a 6x magnified sight, but whether this was zoom adjustable or had to replace the standard 3x magnified optic I am unsure of. The Shermans with the 76mm gun also had a 5x magnified optic while standard shermans had a 3x magnified optic.

So why the notion that German optics were better than allied ones? It has more to do with other factors besides the simple magnification. The 2.4x magnified German sight on Mark IIIs, Mark IVs, and early tigers had a wide 25 degree field of view. In comparison allied 3x magnified optics had only a 13 degree field of view. The zoom adjustable German 2.5x and 5x optics also had an wide FOV compared to allied optics. The 2.5x sight had a 28 degree field of view, while the 5x optics were 14 degree FOV. In short German 5x optics had slightly better FOV than allied 3x, and German 2.4x and 2.5x optics had roughly double the FOV. The high powered 6x sight for the Firefly had a 9 degree field of view which is rather limited. The only allied optic that compared to german sights in magnification and FOV was the 5x optic put in the Sherman 76 series, which had a 13 degree FOV, similar to the 5x mag 14 degree FOV of the German adjustable optics. The StuG was something of an exception, with only an 8 degree FOV for its 5x mag optic, which means it was inferior in that respect to allied optics of similar or even better magnification. What this meant in practice is that German gunners had an easier time acquiring targets their commander assigned for them, as the larger field of view allowed them to see more than allied ones did.

Another advantage of the German optics was their design which created a 'Mili-radian' sight. If you have ever seen one you will see a lot of triangles, but there is a purpose. The triangles utilized a mils that, combined with some math skill taught to panzer crews and a rough idea of tanks size (not hard when your enemies has focused production of a few types of tanks exclusively), allowed the gunner to calculate a rough range of the tank without even having to take a ranging shot. This allowed German gunners to have a high chance of getting first shot hits, and combined with the high velocity guns and powerful guns they had access to from the middle of the war onwards on their tanks, this often meant a kill on the enemy tank before they could react. They were adjustable with a dial around the edges of the optics that let the gunner know what range was dialed in.

Its rather complex but if you are interested you can find a guide here http://www.75thguards.com/ww2online/...ight_Guide.pdf

American optics were rather primitive in comparison, simply a line down the middle with crossing lines representing 400 yard intervals. They were totally range nonadjustable and it must have been rather infuriating trying to land a second shot since the lay of the gun and sight would be thrown off with the recoil and with so many lines you could forget which of those many lines you had lined up on the enemy tank. I know from playing WWIIOL and using those optics that they are not particularly easy to use. British optics on their post 2 pounder armed tanks were similar to the American optics in that they had all the ranges listed in the sight, but it was range adjustable so at least you didnt have the problem with the US optics. Whether the british put their own optics in the lend lease Shermans or not I do not know. Still allied tanks lacked this clever triangle system and would have had to rely more on ranging shots which put them at a disadvantage though modern american optics do have a triangle system though not the same design.

So in conclusion allied optics were not inferior to German optics because of magnification, for the most part they had similarly powered optics to the German ones, and standard allied tanks had a relatively adequate 3x zoom on them. However German optics were superior in field of view to similarly magnified allied optics, perhaps this is why the German optic industry had such a higher reputation than any other at the time. Also the German optic design allowed for panzer crews to estimate accurately the range of allied tanks without needed to fire a ranging shot, thus allowing for a higher percentage of first shot hits, and with the large amount of high powered guns they had as the war went on, often first shot kills.

There are books and people who claim the quality of German optics were superior, that they were clearer or something. I cant comment on that and it is mostly claims and impossible to measure. I am sure that during the dark days for the British and Russians some sub-par optics made their way into tank mounts, but again we will not know for sure. As tank optics are quite rare now, and they are 60 years old we will probably never know and all we can do is rely on the testimonials of the people who used them.

 

from 

 

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