ReachForTheSky

gameplay
Event Options for Tankers to play without Aircraft

Tanks without Planes Events   90 members have voted

  1. 1. Would you like to see an Event for Ground Forces only?

    • Yes
      65
    • No
      25
  2. 2. In which game mode would you prefer most to not have aircraft - in other words, which would you like to play the most?

    • Ground Forces Arcade
      27
    • Ground Forces Realistic
      48
    • Ground Forces Simulator
      21
    • None of the above
      24

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109 posts in this topic

From its early days, War Thunder's aerial combat modes haven't changed a great deal. There exist three types of aerial battles: Air Arcade Battles (AAB), Air Realistic Battles (ARB), and Air Simulator Events (ASE). Currently, the format of the latter seems to be Enduring Confrontation but gameplay is much the same. Despite large differences, all three modes have something in common: Players only play aircraft, anything on the ground (or in the water) is controlled by artificial intelligence, to serve as objectives or targets for ground attackers.


Player-controlled ground forces have subsequently been added. In the beginning, the available game modes did not include any aircraft; but over time, aircraft were included into all three difficulties. So, currently, we have Tank Arcade Battles, Tank Realistic Battles, and Tank Simulator Events, although technically speaking, calling them "Combined Arms AB/RB/SE" would be more appropriate, because player-controlled aircraft play quite a sizeable role in all three modes. Let's look at how aircraft are integrated:


Ground Forces + Air Strikes AB:


After having contributed enough towards the battle, the player is sequentially granted a fly-out in a fighter, attacker or bomber. Fighters are supposed to defend friendly bombers, but lots of players seem to rather try to cause some damage on the ground instead - after all, it takes less effort to hold down your machine guns and fly into a ground vehicle than pursue an evasive bomber. Attackers and bombers have bombs and/or rockets. Dropped bombs stay on the ground for several seconds until they explode, unless dropped from large altitude, which gives the bombs an audible whistle on the ground. Bombs dropped from higher altitude, however, are usually larger ordnance from heavy bombers with a big blast radius. Rockets are very easy to use in AB, flight input is virtually instant so it's very easy to line up a target, and your victim is clearly marked. Furthermore, there is no incentive to actually survive the fly-out so consequently, almost all players tend to suicide into a valuable ground target, firing off their rockets in the last fraction of a second, which basically guarantees a kill with no actual skill required.  This can be particularly frustrating as there is no counter to this whatsoever.


While there is a limitation of sorts on how often sorties can be flown, it isn't long after one attacker or bomber makes a run that another will be available, along with the fighter planes that will more than likely nose-dive guns blazing into the ground.


Combined Arms RB: 


If the player has aircraft in their lineup, they can can use them to spawn later, given enough spawn points have been achieved. The added benefit is you actually are able to gather vehicle and modification research points for these aircraft, which is an incentive to fly the aircraft properly. Suiciding is of course more costly in RB because of the repair bill and the amount of spawn points required for a plane. However, unlike AB, there is no limit to the number of aircraft than can play at once. AA is something of a mitigation, but if enough aircraft are present, it's easy to overwhelm them, or just avoid them.


In the latter stages of a match, when one team begins to gain the upper hand, it's usually air forces that quickly break the back of the enemy ground force and deliver the coup de grâce, while ground forces, which are supposed to be the main force which aircraft support, scurry around the map and fight over scraps. Finally, there's the post-death "kill cam" which shows the dead player where their killer was. The dead player can, if they have enough points, jump in a plane with bombs and zoom over to their opponent's last known location and get revenge.

 

Some players also exploit the cheap spawn-in cost of anti-air, rush an objective, and capture it for a quick plane spawn.

 

Combined Arms Simulator Events:


In AB and RB you typically get an air start, and landing even with critical damage is quite doable. Flying in the simulator events requires people to get off the ground first, which seems to be a sufficient hurdle for some of the community. The skill hurdle factor, and the fact that mixing tanks with planes isn't an option, means that aircraft play a more minor role. On the other hand, aircraft can be extremely efficient on the battlefield in simulator events - this mode attracts many seasoned simulator pilots with great proficiency in aircraft simulation games, and War Thunder's air sim mode. A small band of experienced sim pilots can spot the enemy on the ground, bomb them to smithereens, reload, and repeat. Some battles can be over (or at least effectively won) with very little contribution from ground forces.


To summarise, the current tank gameplay experience is greatly affected, often negatively, by these factors:

 

  • There is no ground forces mode without aircraft. Pilots have this luxury, but tankers do not.
  • In all three modes, aircraft are very powerful, and counters to them have dubious reliability much of the time - especially if the pilot is competent. For a game mode that is supposed to focus on ground combat, pilots get a very large slice of the pie.

 


To potentially address this, and to gather data on how the entire player base feels about the status quo, the implementation of alternative modes could be tested in an event-style format:

 

  • Tank AB: Just like normal ground forces AB, but without the fighter/attacker/bomber events. As they are now, air strikes are quite an awkward feature of AB tank battles with the kamikaze crashes and heavy bombers carpeting the small maps with thousand-kilo bombs. AB tanks worked perfectly fine before they were implemented, and I'm certain many players would like to see them removed, or at least an option to drive AB tanks without air strikes interdicting their experience.
  • Tank RB and SB: Ground vehicles only, without the involvement of air forces.
  • The already existing "Combined Arms" battle modes would not have to be changed at all.

 

The following points should also be considered:

 

  • Implementation effort is minor, since no new balancing or creation of modes would be required
  • Gaijin would get further user information about the interest of the community to have combined arms vs. tank only battles first hand - making a request for feedback in these modes would be beneficial to players and developers.
  • The addition of these modes would, if implemented as full-time events, divide the community up slightly more. However, quality of gameplay is considered by a great deal of players to be much more important than queuing times, as have been expressed on the forums many times, and planes have a detrimental effect on the quality of gameplay for many tankers.
  • Finally, initial testing done as a trial in the Events tab, even if only temporary, could be an educational experience for Gaijin and an interesting, refreshing one for ground vehicles players.

 

Edited by ReachForTheSky
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Open for discussion. :salute:

Added "Gameplay" prefix as that one suits the suggestion better.

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This "vote" about a "tank only" mode has been floated before and also ran around 70% support for tank only. Gaijin loves this Paying Tank Drivers being targets for the air weenies. Air weenies hate the idea as all their targets will disappear and they will actually have to work for SL to feed their egos.

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I generally like having the option for short trips with a plane in ABGF but to have a GF only as an event, maybe on a regular basis, would be really nice.

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1 minute ago, Tommes_Spartan said:

I generally like having the option for short trips with a plane in ABGF but to have a GF only as an event, maybe on a regular basis, would be really nice.

 

My experience is the same: From time to time I like to be able to fly out a plane with my tanks, in particular if I a) have a plane which matches the tank, and b) like it, and c) it can get stuff done both on the ground and in the air. But in a lot of different situations, I might just want to play a certain tank set, and just focus on tank warfare.

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This would then also become a mode with no AA except zsu because it requires medium tank spawn points to spawn 

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45 minutes ago, Talks said:

This would then also become a mode with no AA except zsu because it requires medium tank spawn points to spawn 

 

I am not entirely sure whether I got your point.

  • I do not see a direct requirement to disallow SPAAs - at least this was not suggested
  • There could be AI-airplanes around, as they have been and are on lots of maps, to act to the scenery and to act as cannon-fodder for the SPAAs.
  • Given the fact, that SPAAs currently cost very few spawnpoints, they might be a cheap way to get into a battle again, even without being able to kill airplanes. In fact, theOrangeDoom made a very good video about how to comeback with an SPAA:

 

Edited by Horrifior
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Also check this video from Tigerfrost from 21:30, he is discussing A LOT of the issue in arcade and realistic battles at length:

 

 

 

Edited by Horrifior
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1 hour ago, Talks said:

This would then also become a mode with no AA except zsu because it requires medium tank spawn points to spawn 

 

Anti-air would indeed have a diminished role, but they'd still be able to capture objectives and harass the enemy (breaking tracks, shooting gun barrels etc.). There are still ways to kill tanks with high-pen AA, it's just a bit more difficult now with the belt changes (which was a good change imo).

 

If Gaijin wished, there could be no AA in this mode, which wouldn't be much of a problem I think.

 

And, of course, combined arms battles won't be affected - this will be a separate event. If you want to fight user-controlled planes, you'll still be able to do that just the same in regular random battles or Sim events, just not in this mode.

 

10 minutes ago, dotEXCEL said:

i will say this again: if you have troubles with Aircrafts, maybe you start learning to use SPAAGs. -1

 

And if pilots have trouble with SPAAG, they just play aircraft-only air battles. It's not really fair, is it?

 

Edited by ReachForTheSky
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17 minutes ago, dotEXCEL said:

i will say this again: if you have troubles with Aircrafts, maybe you start learning to use SPAAGs, its not that hard. -1

 

This is a good example of an attempt to troll this thread: Pseudo-argument regarding aircraft coupled to general disrespect regarding players skill.

 

First of all, looking at how bad some other players shoot with their SPAAs, and how many I typically am able to bring down I would consider myself at least better than average.

Second, if you get rocketed/bombed in your tank in simulator mode, you will not have the opportunity AT ALL to respawn in a SPAA. If you get rocketed or bombed in realistic, you might be able IF you have enough spawn points and an SPAA in the line-up. In AB I guess this does not really make a lot of sense, since the airplanes are just flown out in events, so the airplane to be shot down will be gone as soon as you spawn in your SPAA...

Third, dotEXCEL either did not understand or refused to accept that this is about an ALTERNATIVE. Nobody suggests to change the current "tank"-battles - we want airplane-less battles IN ADDITION.

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10 minutes ago, Horrifior said:

 

This is a good example of an attempt to troll this thread: Pseudo-argument regarding aircraft coupled to general disrespect regarding players skill.

 

First of all, looking at how bad some other players shoot with their SPAAs, and how many I typically am able to bring down I would consider myself at least better than average.

Second, if you get rocketed/bombed in your tank in simulator mode, you will not have the opportunity AT ALL to respawn in a SPAA. If you get rocketed or bombed in realistic, you might be able IF you have enough spawn points and an SPAA in the line-up. In AB I guess this does not really make a lot of sense, since the airplanes are just flown out in events, so the airplane to be shot down will be gone as soon as you spawn in your SPAA...

Third, dotEXCEL either did not understand or refused to accept that this is about an ALTERNATIVE. Nobody suggests to change the current "tank"-battles - we want airplane-less battles IN ADDITION.

im not trolling here m8. i see so many teams complaining about aircrafts but no one is using a SPAAG or if used only to hunt and kill tanks... which is NOT their main purpose. correct me if im wrong

Edited by dotEXCEL
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Just now, dotEXCEL said:

im not trolling here m8. i see so many teams complaining about aircrafts but no one is using a SPAAG or if used only to hunt and kill tanks... which is NOT their main purpose. correct me if im wrong

 

That does not mean you can exclude them from being in the game, I use them at times and when I do it's for AAA work. A lot of AAA platforms have a second role.

Edited by Maki3006
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Same with me, in particular in RB I always try to have an SPAA in the lineup, to spawn in the middle til end of the game should we have lost the sky. But to play an SPAA most effectively, you HAVE to be able to watch your surroundings and the sky, to not get killed by someone pushing behind your lines, while setting up a couple of airkills.

 

Situation in SB is different (=awkward), because currently it is an entire gamble, since no team balancing is done and you are stuck to your first choice of vehicle for the remaining battle. Of course, one can always FIRST hop into an airplane, but this is also a gamble. No matter what, you have to guess from the daytime + previous battles how many people will probably be around in what, and what your team will most probably need most. I only directly spawned in SPAAs in Sim after losing 1-2 battles due to the opponents aircraft being way to popular, that did help...

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21 minutes ago, Maki3006 said:

 

That does not mean you can exclude them from being in the game, I use them at times and when I do it's for AAA work. A lot of AAA platforms have a second role.

and still they are spaags. last battle for example. 3 ostwinds and 1 wirbelwind in my team. the enemy team has 2 Il-2s, which are not that hard to hit. what were our AAAs doing, yes... shooting at heavy tanks. :facepalm:

 

32 minutes ago, Horrifior said:

Second, if you get rocketed/bombed in your tank in simulator mode, you will not have the opportunity AT ALL to respawn in a SPAA.

Third, dotEXCEL either did not understand or refused to accept that this is about an ALTERNATIVE. Nobody suggests to change the current "tank"-battles - we want airplane-less battles IN ADDITION.

to your second point: i have than more respect for the pilot because its hard in sim to kill something with rockets. no spawns.... i guess you are a heavy tank driver then.

to your third point: Imo its gonna be just an other gamemode with not many players and long queue times....

Edited by dotEXCEL
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Just now, dotEXCEL said:

and still they are spaags. last battle for example. 3 ostwinds and 1 wirbelwind in my team. the enemy team has 2 Il-2s, which are not that hard to hit. what were our AAAs doing, yes... shooting at heavy tanks. :facepalm:

 

Blame the player, not the vehicle. 

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4 minutes ago, dotEXCEL said:

to your second point: i have than more respect for the pilot because its hard in sim to kill something with rockets. no spawns.... i guess you are a heavy tank driver then.

 

I guess you are not playing sim then. You have one spawn in a heavy tank / heavy TD, or two in anything else, plus one airplane. But you are stuck to that vehicle as soon as you have taken one spawn. Say you take your Panther II out for a ride, get killed - you can only respawn in a second Panther II, or - if you did not do it yet - an airplane.

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1 hour ago, dotEXCEL said:

i will say this again: if you have troubles with Aircrafts, maybe players should start learning to use SPAAGs, its not that hard. -1

nd still they are spaags. last battle for example. 3 ostwinds and 1 wirbelwind in my team. the enemy team has 2 Il-2s, which are not that hard to hit. what were our AAAs doing, yes... shooting at heavy tanks. :facepalm:

 

9 minutes ago, Maki3006 said:

 

Blame the player, not the vehicle. 

do i really have to quote myself here. i never blamed the vehicles

5 minutes ago, Horrifior said:

 

I guess you are not playing sim then. You have one spawn in a heavy tank / heavy TD, or two in anything else, plus one airplane. But you are stuck to that vehicle as soon as you have taken one spawn. Say you take your Panther II out for a ride, get killed - you can only respawn in a second Panther II, or - if you did not do it yet - an airplane.

maybe you should check my ingame playercard m8. i am playing sim.

Edited by dotEXCEL
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Just now, dotEXCEL said:

 

do i really have to quote myself here. i never blamed the vehicles

 

You said the players were shooting at tanks.

Edited by Maki3006
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1 minute ago, Maki3006 said:

 

You said the players were shooting at tanks.

so who did i blamed then. vehicle or player?

 

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7 minutes ago, dotEXCEL said:

to your second point: i have than more respect for the pilot because its hard in sim to kill something with rockets. no spawns.... i guess you are a heavy tank driver then.

 

I'd agree, but

 

20 hours ago, ReachForTheSky said:

this mode attracts many seasoned simulator pilots with great proficiency in aircraft simulation games, and War Thunder's air sim mode

 

A good player will hug the ground, look for AA tracers, and attack from an unseen angle. The point is, aircraft can largely determine the course of the battle alone, especially in smaller matches (which most sim games are). A plane can respond VERY quickly to an objective being captured, and their birds' eye view makes moving in your tank a risk unless you're very careful with where you place yourself. I don't really want a sim game where anti-air players duel with aircraft while a few tankers are just along for the ride, but that's how it is sometimes.

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Just now, dotEXCEL said:

so who did i blamed then. vehicle or player?

 

 

The player, I did not see the point of your comment in the first place hence why I made my comment.

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Player are players. This is about a suggestion. Let's try to stay on topic.

 

This suggestion would give people a valuable alternative, which would even be more historically accurate, since most ground battles up to the Vietnam aera did not have extensive Close Air Support, for such simple reasons as the weather just being to bad, aircraft not being available etc. So why not from time to time have a ground battle in which airplanes are not available?

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6 minutes ago, Maki3006 said:

 

The player, I did not see the point of your comment in the first place hence why I made my comment.

this suggestion is about getting a new gamemode without aircraft because people think they are op, which is nonsense imo. solution: teach players how to use aaa right. they are support vehiecles. yes it can be boring but you help your team. as an aaa play smart. reposition yourself after fireing to make it hare for the enemy team to find you. stop hunting down tanks. but this whole discussion is pointless!

Edited by dotEXCEL
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