Dundee93

Destroyers in WT Navy

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So, I have been following the forums and watching youtube videos of naval gameplay, and I noticed that there is not really any discussion going on about how to make small ships (corvettes, DEs, DDs) work in the current format, even though they are far more likely to be implemented than battleships, etc. I personally like the idea of limiting WT Navy to boats and small ships, but even if you want larger ships, finding a way to make small ships work with boats will definitely help pave the way to larger ships. 

 

I think the biggest problems facing the addition of small ships will be balancing older destroyers (WWI era convoy escorts, for example) and later vessels. River boats will also be difficult to balance, because they would have their advantages limited to shallow water combat if better armed open-ocean capable ships are around. The AFP could still do well fairly early, because of its heavy armor and decent weaponry (I believe in some ways it is better protected than many destroyers). I think maps that combine fairly large shallow portions (which would prevent larger ships from dominating the entire map) with a good amount of deeper, less calm areas could do a lot to make for balanced gameplay.

 

I think a good step towards bringing ships in would be to develop a quality tech tree based limited to balancing small ships and boats, rather than 1) insisting on bringing cruisers and battleships in, or 2) giving up on anything bigger than an MZ1.

 

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I think the main reason they have not been discussed much is because for all intents and purposes they would not be too much more powerful than sub chasers or corvettes which are most likely going to be implemented but the second reason is that Gaijin seem very determinant to push the Coast Guard on us regardless of the feedback given, People where not too fond of test weekend 2, which involved mostly Pt boats in a conquest game mode but people Really liked tests 3 - 4 which involved sub chasers in the convoy game mode, but with test 5 they went back to a mode like test 2 with mostly river boats/Pt boats again and that has not been received well at all, so its less there is no point talking about it when we are only talking to ourselves.

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It's nice to get your input. I will say, I'd hate to see players give up on influencing the game because they assume they are not being listened to. You seem to have a longer and more involved history with the game than me, though, so maybe I am just being idealistic about that. 

 

I do think destroyers may be difficult to balance, and the way they are balanced (if added) will have a huge effect on gameplay going forward. Depending on whether they go merely put destroyers as late tier, or use a more chronological approach to balance, will affect nearly every aspect of the game (BRs for current and future vehicles, map design, game mode design, etc.) 

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10 hours ago, Dundee93 said:

It's nice to get your input. I will say, I'd hate to see players give up on influencing the game because they assume they are not being listened to. You seem to have a longer and more involved history with the game than me, though, so maybe I am just being idealistic about that. 

 

I do think destroyers may be difficult to balance, and the way they are balanced (if added) will have a huge effect on gameplay going forward. Depending on whether they go merely put destroyers as late tier, or use a more chronological approach to balance, will affect nearly every aspect of the game (BRs for current and future vehicles, map design, game mode design, etc.) 

There is a whole thread dedicated to solving all these balance issues, If you where in the CBT i'd link you the thread, but it does cover pretty much everything you've raised here

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Oh nice. I'm glad to hear that. I guess this thread is pretty much pointless then (especially since people in the CBT probably have a much better idea of what they are talking about).

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On ‎20‎.‎2‎.‎2017 at 1:50 AM, Dundee93 said:

Oh nice. I'm glad to hear that. I guess this thread is pretty much pointless then (especially since people in the CBT probably have a much better idea of what they are talking about).

 

It's not pointless as long as the testers (who are not under NDA) are directed to talk in a closed area of the forums.

 

 

In other words: Gaijin, at least make the testing forum read-only access to everyone with write access to testers.

Edited by tizianenel
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2 hours ago, tizianenel said:

 

It's not pointless as long as the testers (who are not under NDA) are directed to talk in a closed area of the forums.

 

 

In other words: Gaijin, at least make the testing forum read-only access to everyone with write access to testers.

This. 100% this. 

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On 18.02.2017 at 6:14 PM, the_suztown said:

There is a whole thread dedicated to solving all these balance issues, If you where in the CBT i'd link you the thread, but it does cover pretty much everything you've raised here

 

It is really sad that for Gaijin only CBT testers gave rights to discuss about destroyers balance...

May I understand that for Gaijin the people who don't decide to test barges have no constructive navy ideas at all?

:008:

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I'd actually love to see some "small big ships" (like Destroyers). They're fast and fragile (just like the current 'coastal forces'), just a bit bigger.

 

Hopefully one day...

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1 hour ago, PL_Andrev said:

 

It is really sad that for Gaijin only CBT testers gave rights to discuss about destroyers balance...

May I understand that for Gaijin the people who don't decide to test barges have no constructive navy ideas at all?

:008:

It's hard to judge balance only by a few videos and stats. On paper an ship with

  • 2 x 8,8-cm-FlaK
  • 1 x 3,7-cm-FlaK
  • 8 x 2-cm-FlaK
  • 2 x 53,3-cm-TT

 

is superior to one with

  • 2 × 2 25-mm-L/79 2M-3
  • 2 × 1 TT ∅ 533 mm

But the test proved that both are balanced. Non beta testers can still post their ideas in this forum, or ask a tester to post a suggestion for them.

 

Now about Destroyers. we currently don't know how the techtrees will look like, so its hard to predict where the first Destroyer will be placed. But we know where the line will end. At T5. so lets take a look at possible Destroyers at that tier.

 

Germany Hamburg Klasse

Spoiler

800px-Zerst%C3%B6rer_Hamburg.jpg

Displacement: 4,050 tonnes
Length: 133.7 m (438 ft 8 in)
Beam: 13.4 m (44 ft 0 in)
Draft: 4.8 m (15 ft 9 in)
Propulsion: 4 × Wahodag boilers, 2 steam turbines, 72,000 shp
Speed:
  • 35 knots (65 km/h)
Armament:

 

Japan Akizuki-class

Spoiler

JS_Akiduki(DD-161).jpg

 

Displacement:
  • 2,350 long tons (2,388 t) standard
  • 2,890 long tons (2,936 t) normal
Length: 118 m (387 ft 2 in)
Beam: 12 m (39 ft 4 in)
Draft: 4 m (13 ft 1 in)
Propulsion: 2 steam turbines, 4 boilers 45,000 shp (34,000 kW) / 2 shafts, 2 propellers
Speed: 32 knots (59 km/h; 37 mph) max.
Complement: 330
Armament:

Russia Projekt 30bis

Spoiler

Skoryy_Class_destroyer.jpg

Displacement: 2,316 long tons (2,353 t) standard, 3,066 long tons (3,115 t) full load
Length: 120.5 m (395 ft 4 in)
Beam: 12 m (39 ft 4 in)
Draught: 3.9 m (12 ft 10 in)
Propulsion: 2 shaft geared turbines, 3 boilers 60,000 shp (44,742 kW)
Speed: 36.5 knots (67.6 km/h; 42.0 mph)
Range: 4,080 nautical miles (7,556 km; 4,695 mi) at 16 kn (30 km/h; 18 mph)
Complement: 286
Armament:
  • 2 × 2 - 130 mm (5.1 in) B-2LM guns
  • 1 × 2 - 85 mm (3.3 in) AA guns
  • 7 × 1 - 37 mm (1.5 in) AA guns
  • 2 × 5 - 533 mm (21 in) torpedo tubes
  • 60 mines or 52 depth charges
  • Modernisation included removing one set of torpedo tubes, replacing the 37  mm guns with 57  mm guns and adding RBU 2500 anti-submarine rockets

 

GB Daring-class

Spoiler

800px-HMAS-Vampire-D11-01.jpg

Displacement: Standard: 2,830 tons, Full load: 3,820 tons
Length: 390 ft (120 m)
Beam: 43 ft (13 m)
Draught: 12.75 ft (3.89 m)
Propulsion: 2 Foster Wheeler boilers 650 psi (4.5 MPa), 850 °F (454 °C), Parsons steam turbines (English Electric in RAN ships), 2 shafts, 54,000 shp (40 MW)
Speed: 30 knots (56 km/h; 35 mph)
Range: 4,400 nautical miles (8,100 km; 5,100 mi) at 20 knots (37 km/h; 23 mph)
Complement: 297
Armament:

 

US Forrest Sherman-class

Spoiler

Uss_Hull_DD-945.jpg

Displacement:
  • 2,800 tons standard
  • 4,050 tons full load
Length:
  • 407 ft (124 m) waterline
  • 418 ft (127 m) overall
Beam: 45 ft (14 m)
Draft: 22 ft (6.7 m)
Propulsion:
  • General Electric steam turbines (Westinghouse in DD-931)
  • 4 × 1,200 psi (8.3 MPa) Foster-Wheeler boilers (Babcock & Wilcox in DD-937, DD-943, DD-944, DD-945, DD-946 and DD-948)
  • 70,000 shp (52 MW), 2 × shafts.
Speed: 32.5 knots (60.2 km/h)
Range: 4,500 nautical miles (8,300 km) at 20 knots (37 km/h)
Complement: 15 officers, 318 enlisted
Armament:
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Awesome. Do we have anything to go off of for where the Destroyer line would start? WW I era? 1930s? Or would they start it off with corvettes?

 

I have the feeling that having torpedoes at all tiers will definitely help even the playing field against destroyers, so corvettes/DDs might work all the way back at T1.

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4 hours ago, Dundee93 said:

Awesome. Do we have anything to go off of for where the Destroyer line would start? WW I era? 1930s? Or would they start it off with corvettes?

They won't start with Destroyers for sure. Way to fast with to many guns and crew. And that does't change to much between Destroyer classes. There needs to be some kind of progression.

 

4 hours ago, Dundee93 said:

I have the feeling that having torpedoes at all tiers will definitely help even the playing field against destroyers, so corvettes/DDs might work all the way back at T1.

I doubt that. Torpedoes might be powerful if they hit, but hitting a moving target with a really slow projectile over a considerable distance is even more difficult than it sounds.

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By the way, do they have any lists of potential shell types for naval guns? I may have missed something, but it looked like the German 88mm naval guns only have HE shells in game. I would think it would be difficult to balance an AFP with ships that have even 15mm armor unless they gave it some kind of AP shell. 

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52 minutes ago, Dundee93 said:

By the way, do they have any lists of potential shell types for naval guns? I may have missed something, but it looked like the German 88mm naval guns only have HE shells in game. I would think it would be difficult to balance an AFP with ships that have even 15mm armor unless they gave it some kind of AP shell. 

Apparently there were AP shells, but the AFP indeed had only HE during the test. And had more than 15 mm of armor. Important is the location of the armor. As long as we don't get belt armor HE is enough to sink any vessel.

http://www.navweaps.com/Weapons/WNGER_88mm-45_skc35.php

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3 minutes ago, Dundee93 said:

Awesome. Do you know if the other shells were used by the AFP or if they are likely to be added? 

Not without a copy of "Naval Weapons of World War Two" by John Campbell or a similar book. But judging by how easy it was to take out the T-35 turrets they are not necessary until we get Monitors in the same Br range.

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Does anyone by any chance have a list of revealed CBT boats and the BRs they were assigned? I realize a lot may change with that, but it would be helpful to have it available for view somewhere for all us non-CBT people for discussing balance.

This all because I forgot what the AFP was matched against (although I'd guess from your comment up there that it was matched up with the Pr 1124).  :P

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8 hours ago, Dundee93 said:

Does anyone by any chance have a list of revealed CBT boats and the BRs they were assigned? I realize a lot may change with that, but it would be helpful to have it available for view somewhere for all us non-CBT people for discussing balance.

First test: S-100, Project 1124, BMO, PT-314, Fairmile C (forgot the planes)

Second test: LS-2, PT-20, T-14, G-5, D-3 (all reserve boats, forgot the planes)

Third test: MZ-1, S-100, He-111, Pr. 183 “Bolshevik”, Project 122bis, IL-4

Forth test: MZ-1, S-100, He-111, Fw 190, Pr. 183 “Bolshevik”, Project 122bis, IL-4, Russian Fighter (?) 

Fifth test:  AF D1, MBK Pr. 186, Fairmile D 617-632, Elco PT 314

Sixt test: Typ-Klasse 140 Jaguar, Pr. 183 “Bolshevik”, Dark Class MTB and Dark Class MGB, IL-2-37, Hs.129B-2, Hurricane Mk.IV (probably all T IV)

 

So far the Br seemed to be all over the place, but balanced. 

 

Not yet tested

Germany

  • Artilleriefährprahm Typ D3 
  • VS 8 Hydrofoil  

Italy

  • MAS 500

Russia

  • Project 1124 ack 
  • MBK 161 1943
  • MBK 161 1944
  • MKL 186
  • MKL 186 mk85
  • OD 200
  • Ya-5
  • Pr-191
  • Pr-191m

USA

  • Elco 80ft (with rocket launchers)

Japan

  • Kusentei W-13 1942 
  • T14 class mod 1  (different gun)
  • Type 11 PT-15

 

Edited by Lord_of_Sofa
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How do I become a Navy tester? Do I just buy the Naval pack and participate in the game modes when available or is it only open to a select few?

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7 minutes ago, GazBuscus said:

How do I become a Navy tester? Do I just buy the Naval pack and participate in the game modes when available or is it only open to a select few?

How do i join?

It’s very simple. Become the owner of one of the pre-order packs in the Gaijin store. Your purchase will automatically make you a member of the beta test.

In addition, the set contains some fantastic game bonuses, including a unique premium craft which will be available in beta test. Please note! Game sessions for the first testing stage will be available in special Events (Events and Specials - Naval Battles) at specific times, several times a week.

 

How do I participate?
Do you own an early access package? Congratulations, for you it’s easy!
Launch the game as normal and you will be presented with the option to download the main testing files on joining one of the test events, there is no requirement for a different launcher. After this, visit the game’s official forum, log in with your account and check out the special forum section!
 
We’ve also opened an application for players who want to participate but haven't purchased the packs for the closed beta test, which starts later. You can send in an application and we’ll review you as a candidate for the role of captain on a military vessel.

 

How beta test will be?
Testing of naval battles will be done in several stages.
In the first stage (pre-beta testing) special missions will be available at a specific time, several days per week. Vehicles that require test will be pre-allocated in the missions. The test will be primarily focused on vessel physics and controls - your feedback is extremely important at this stage, join the pre-beta testing and share your ideas in the special section of the forum.
In the following testing stages (beta testing) the participants will be able to research the trees of several nations and for testing will join some selected players that submitted a request for testing.

https://warthunder.com/en/news/4533-fleet-naval-pre-beta-testing-schedule-en/

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