Stona

Feedback thread for economy changes. February 2017

There is still a great need for a rework of the ground forces rewards ratio in comparison to aircraft.  Its abysmally low.  As an example I played a pretty good game about a week ago in my Chi-nu II and Ki-100.  I got 7 kills with the Chi-Nu II and made a grand total of 19,040 silver lions from those kills.  having been knocked out by a dastardly SPAA I jumped into the Ki-100 II and scored 2 aerial kills.  Those 2 aerial kills alone made me 18,340 silver lions.  The fact that 2 air kills made me nearly the same amount as 7 tank kills shows that there is a MASSIVE disparity between ground forces earnings and aircraft earnings.  Here is the link to my total earnings from that match.  Keep in mind this is with the use of 2 premium vehicles, and a premium account.  I regularly see on reddit screenshots of people without the use of premium vehicles and accounts receive almost nothing for their effort.  We are talking about less than 2500 RP and sub 30k SL for similar results to mine.

 

Now I am a very good player and am more than capable of getting back to back to back ace games on a regular basis.  However for the average user without a premium account the earnings for Ground forces in comparison to air forces takes nearly three times as long based on both RP and SL alone.  This is not okay.  I understand that Gaijin is a business and at the end of the day you guys have to eat as well.  BUT, the grind that war thunder ground forces requires in the long run is going to hurt you more in terms of number of new players lost.  

 

All I ask, for the sake of the average joe out there, is that you make ground forces if not the equal of aircraft, than make them at least 75% of the income that aircraft make.  As of now its less than a 1/3rd of what aircraft make per match.      

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Gaijin is asking for feed back on changes to the economy when we do not know the metric used to set the standard for the economy.  Sort of like asking a blind person if they like the color.

 

My feedback is this, lower all repair costs.

 

I looked at the tanks that are at a specific BR across the nations.  Vehicles that are at a specific BR should be rated the same? close to the same?? similar???  They are similar in BR so they are comparable to each other with similar win/loss?, earning potential?  (OH ya, that's right, the players are not told how the BR is set, yet asked to give feedback if it is too high or too low, off our gut feeling, or our own personal observations also (so if you have a special vehicle you like, shout loud enough and it might get lowered.)

 

So for BR 5.0 tanks in Arcade battle  (does free repair time change if you have it in a crew slot or not?)  (Does max repair cost change as you get more modules?  (max means maximum, so it should be the highest repair cost a player will ever pay for that vehicle, but that does not seem to be the case.))

 

      Tank                          Repair Cost               Free Repair                RP earning Potential             SL earning potential

M4A1 (76) W                      2733                          2d                              X 1.6                                        X 1.0

M4A2 (76) W                      3206                          2d 10hr                      X 1.6                                        X 1.1

M4A3E2                             4219                          3d 7hr                        X 1.66                                     X 1.3

M19                                    7268                          2d 22hr                      X 1.6                                        X 1.3

SU-152                               1502                          23hr 32min                X 1.54                                      X 1.0

T34-85                                2310                         1d 11hr                       X 1.54                                      X 1.0

KV-2 1939                           1928                          13hr 34min                X 1.36                                      X 1.1

Sherman VC Firefly             2232                         2d                             X 1.6                                         X 1.0

Avenger                               2090                         1d 18 hr                    X 1.6                                         X 0.9

Crusader                             6171                          2d 12 hr                    X 1.6                                         X 1.2

Type 5 Chi-Ri II                    4582                          1d 6hr                       X 1.6                                         X 1.5

 

That is all the non premium tanks that I could find at 5.0 BR.  There is no German tanks at that BR rating.

 

Highest repair cost for a tank - Type 5, out of the list of tanks there, it's only advantage is the auto loader for 3 shots (at about the same speed as the British) then it has a major disadvantage for the next 30 seconds while it reloads.  Which would you rather be in? A M4A3E2 or a Type 5 Chi-Ri II when fighting against the other tank.  I know which one I would pick, and it is the lower cost one to repair, it is immune to the Chi-Ri II shells at range while the Chi-Ri II can be penned by it.

lowest repair cost - SU-152, I can see that, as it is not a great tank destroyer.

 

Sherman VC Firefly, M4A1, M4A2, T34-85, and Type 5  are all medium tanks.  The differences are stunning, from a low of 2310 for the T34 to a high of 4582 for the Type 5.  I feel they all should be around the same, within 500 SL of each other for repair cost and repair time should be similar for all of them also, so from 2310 to 2810 repair cost and 1.5 days to 2 days to repair

 

Su-152, KV-2, and Avenger are all tank destroyers.  Low of 1502 for the SU-152, High of 2090 for the avenger.  Both the KV and the SU has better one hit capacity than the Avenger,  SU has the disadvantage of not having a turret though.  I am content with this variation in repair cost, but the variation in the free repair time is quite a bit from a low of about 14hr to 1 day 18 hr.  Why the difference?

 

M19 and Crusader are SPAA vehicles and the repair costs are 7268 and 6171.  Well the belts have just been changed on most of the SPAA so they are not as good at killing tanks anymore.  Should the prices drop?  Are they 3 times as effective at killing things than the KV-2?

 

So no consistency in repair prices by BR, no consistency in repair times by BR.

 

Just what are we supposed to use to make our comment on repair prices?  We need more information. 

 

Gross earnings of the vehicle per battle broken down for AB, RB and SB

Net earning of the vehicle broken down for AB, RB, and SB so we can see how much was spent on ammo, as it is quite high for some vehicles.

Kill to death ratio of vehicle for AB, RB, SB would be nice.

Any other information that could be use to make an informed discussion/decision would be nice also.

 

The above information does not reveal any proprietary secrets of Gaijin's. it just shows the amount of income per vehicle, the cost of rearming the vehicle and it's average K/D so we can see how many tanks it kills before it dies on average. So we can make informed decisions about cost of repairs for vehicles.  All this information can be collected and collated now, but it would take some work on the players part, Player cards K/D, play a game or 2 and know how much a vehicle kill is worth, Average ammo expenditure per kill X cost per shell gives rearming cost.

 

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15 hours ago, nayfas2 said:

well i dont see any big deal with the increase of the cost of most of the tanks at least in RB (i dont know about planes cous i dont play them), i think u should make the changes asap.

 

 

Clearly, you must play with a premium acc where your reward is doubled. The average T4 tank needs 2-4 kills to make up for its own repair cost. The repair cost shouldnt be increased, and the SL gain needs to increased to be on par with aircraft of similar rank/tier. the average T5 tank has the same reward bonus (SL)  as a late T2 plane

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13 hours ago, Cpt_Inkognito said:

Speaking for SB:

 

What is the rationale behind the P-47D-28 so much more expensive than the D-25,.....

This is in all modes - they are, literally, the same aeroplane with a different propellor that makes no actual performance difference.  The 25's were all made in Evanscville and had Curtis electric props, and the 28's were all made in Long Island with Hamilton Standard props.

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Frankly speaking the RP reward for Ground Forces need to be addressed, because for the few people I know that do play or have played they stopped because of the long grind and low rewards.  Only one person stuck with it and it has taken him two years to get to the first Leopard, in fact it frustrates him so much he doesn't open his wallet anymore the only time he does is if GEs go on sale then he gets a bunch of premium time on the cheap.  RP rewards need to be increased to help encourage people to keep going, the only reason I've gone through so fast is because I've stuck with it and I nearly have all the trees completed (and I'm an idiot for shiny things)

As per how much bring all forces in line with air forces RP rewards and that will make people relatively happy, I should not have to kill 6-7 people with a talisamned STB to earn 11k RP where 3-4 kills with a regular plane (not even premium and not even talismaned) will earn me nearly the same reward in airforces.  I can promise that one change alone will lessen many people's loads, I know it was originally lowered when there were only two GF trees but that time is long since past let's bring it in line with AF please!

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There's a lot of information here, except what it needs to understand it all.  WHY are these values chosen?  Have I missed some posting somewhere explaining that?  It all seems chaotic and random.  Why is a I-185 (M-71) more expensive to repair in RB than a Mig 17, but 1/3rd the price in AB?  Why are Japanese aircraft so unbelievably expensive to repair with the British jets close behind?  Why is the Kugelblitz 17,000 SL in AB, but 1,540 SL in RB, the reverse of most others?

 

It makes *no* sense!

 

I won't fly Japanese at high tiers in RB, It's too expensive.  I already can't keep up with the SL demands of grinding higher tier tanks given the crappy rewards.  Who else here has to spend a week every month grinding SL at BR 3.7 air just to keep ahead.

 

The SL costs are weird and completely confusing.  Why?

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Hello to all players and developers,

I don't agree, basically, with the vehicle repair rating system. I consider this :

When a vehicle has destroyed at least 1 enemy vehicle in a winning party, the balance between the rewards and the repair price must be positive.

I mean that the economy of the game must allow a player whose team wins the game and who have destroyed at least 1 ennemy vehicle to have a profit in "SL" if he has to repair his destroyed vehicle.

Of course, this rule must be effective without the possible rewards of "boosters".

An example :

I play with a Pz IV H, BR 4.3 in RB, without booster. If I destroy 1 enemy tank during the game and my team wins, and if my Pz IV H is destroyed, the price of the repair must be less than the reward obtained.
Nowaday, the maximum repair cost is 1 370 SL. A game won without a booster, with 1 destroyed enemy tank gives only about 1 000 SL (very difficult to calculate exactly, but that is my assessment). Thus, the PzIV H, in a won game and with 1 enemy tank destroyed is not profitable (and it will be even less at 1 480 SL!).

If I play with a T34-57, BR 4.7 in RB, without a booster, my team wins and I have destroyed 1 enemy tank, the repair price of my tank is 690 SL (and will increase to 890 SL ). It is therefore much more profitable than PzIV H.

But the performance of the player was the same.

I argue for an "universal" rule of repair costs : in a winning game, with at least 1 enemy tank destroyed, the repair cost must be less than the reward at the end of the game.

 

And of course the same rule with planes.

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Is there any plans to increase the SL/RP rewards for GF? 

 

The T5 RP grind is painful, and then taking nearly 1.3 million SL to actually get to drive that tank you have been toiling for kinda sucks. 

 

 

 

 

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Till this day i dont understand why 9.0 jet is cheaper to repair than 7.0 jet. Even some props are more expensive to repair than 9.0 jets. As someone who is always low on SL, i dont really like these changes. The one reason(and probably the most important) i stopped flying planes in RB/SB was repair costs, and i guess this is not going to change.

Edited by Crytiv
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What happens when repair prices are increased to absurd amounts (Japanese planes, 10k+ costs in general):

2 cases:

-Those that do good in it, either don't die, or they do good enough to balance for the greater price;

-Those that are just "casuals" and want to play the plane just for fun, give up because the cost is too high and they can't manage to gain credits with it, not with an average game, not with a less than good game.

 

The greater the increase in price, the less "casuals" will feel like playing the vehicles, thus creating a loop that will keep increasing the repair prices since only players that are very good will keep on playing them, and so on, thinning the number of players with each cycle.

 

So, repair prices are supposed to be for balancing credits gain, and that good. But the spread shouldn't be so extreme, to a point where it seems just ridiculous.

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<scratches head>

XP-38 has higher repair cost in RB than non-premium P-38...

 

And TA-154 (tier 3) has higher repair cost than D-13...?

 

I thought if you buy premium vehicle one of the perks is low repair cost.

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OK not really sure anymore what you guys are basing repair costs off of but I can handle most of these little ups and downs. Now what gets me though is its like you're not looking at the long term effects of all of these changes put together. The Hellcat TD stands out as a prime example in this.  You implemented hull break which makes this an extremely weak vehicle now, increased its BR,  and increased the cost on it. On paper it really seems as though you will kill off the use of that TD. The Japanese aircraft are another concern. I really can't understand why the repair costs are so high. Maybe the best way to go with all these prices would be more based off Rank or BR. 

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I don't understand half of the changes in SB repairs.

Why are some bombers' repair prices getting reduced?

Why do some fighters still cost over 20k?

To take out, not even to repair.

Are the do 335's that good to cost so much money? And the f82's? 

There's already an obvious lack of players flying T4 japan, and you're increasing some of the repair prices?

Why?

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I'm not agreeing to some of these changes and here's the general reason why:

 

Gajin is implementing all the BR, Economy and game mechanic changes in a small period of time, which results in some vehicles getting pretty much hit by Thor's Hammer and making them unusable until next 'tweak' occurs.

 

All these changes should be staggered like few months in between them so their effect on game balance could be properly analyzed without playerbase getting a feeling they are being screwed up by huge changes. 

 

If whatever the math Gaijin is using to calculate the repair cost shows drastic increase/decrease (like more than 15%), it should be taken as clear indication that there's flaw/exploit/problem in the game mechanics or in BR of the vehicle and that should be fixed first and only after the effect of that fix could be evaluated, the economy should be adjusted. 

 

This simply because it's the average player that suffers most from these drastic changes, not the small portion of playerbase who were exploiting these issues (possibly unintentionally)

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Gaijin, you really need to adjust the RP gain in GF. There is so many tanks now and the grind is just too slow. It really needs to be like in planes.

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2 questions, 

1- How is the Type 61 still worth 8000 SL's to repair in AB?

2- Why is the Kugelblitz still 17,000 + SL's to repair in AB? and the ZSU -57-2 ONLY 2880 SL's to repair in AB? this tank is UNDENIABLY the best TD is game, so why  have you punished the Kugelblitz  and Coelian for so long and not the ZSU-57.? Since the big nerf to all other nations AP rounds for the SPAA's don't you think it is time to bring them within a close and fairly balanced area in terms of repair costs?

Would be nice to take out these in AB instead of the Gepard all the time.

Kugelblitz   360000 360000 0 17920 17600

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On 2/13/2017 at 1:54 PM, nayfas2 said:

well i dont see any big deal with the increase of the cost of most of the tanks at least in RB (i dont know about planes cous i dont play them), i think u should make the changes asap.

Well what do you think of this then this is so dumb i get 2 kills ans still lose money and actually for me the repair was 25000sl

87090f0226fa6c1fc01f4c40b1ada017.png

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There's no mention of a AB repair cost increase here for the T29, but today it's been increased by 380 along with the cost of its ammo going up.  And yet the premium Tiger II(H) has its AB repairs lowered, even though it's already way less than the non premium version and its best ammo is free. Seems legit...

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Japan still has the most expensive vehicles by far.

 

R2Y repair cost is too high, V2 wasn't changed and costs 50000 SL to repair. This is so high that with no premium even flying well and killing enemies if you die you will lose a lot of money, this is wrong.

 

Please Gaijin lower the overall price tag of Japanese planes, it's already the least player tree and these prices aren't atractive for new players....

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Can someone answer why the repair costs for all the top tier SPAA except 1 has gone up to over 20,000 SL?? This makes no sense, i logged into the game to check my AB lineup and noticed the repair costs, Also why was this not listed in the Economy Change list?

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I feel that the economy changes was just a massive and over complicated nerf to all the heavy bombers in the game. In my opinion, players use bombers to earn large amount of RP and credits so the players can unlock and purchase new aircraft as quickly as possible. With these new economy changes to bombers, it will make bombers more expensive to fly with fewer rewards if they even drop their bombs on a bombing target.

 I feel that if the developers want to reduce the battles where bombers wipe out all the bombing points and destroy the airbase, they should just reduce the amount of bombers that are allowed into a match.

For example: if only 2 heavy bombers were allowed into a slandered RB match, those two heavy bombers would not be enough to destroy an airbase without returning to their base to rearm and fly back out. By the time the bombers made it back in the air, the match would be in its closing phases and if there is only one player on the opposite team that is being passive and tries to hide and run the clock down, the bombers would be able to end the match to prevent the match from dragging for too long.

Going back toe the economy changes, I do like the changes to the fighters, but the changes to bombers was an over complicated nerf to the bombers that could be fixed with a much more simpler solution.

 

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Just by curiosity.. Did you perhaps increase the cost of backup vehicles as well??
Noticed that some japan tanks were a bit on the expensive side at 100 - 200GE (rank 3).

Can you just show us the same data sheet with those increases as well in that case?

It's only fair that we can se costs that actualy meen spending more real hard cash ;)

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So where in the patchnotes are stated that research points needed to unlock F9F-8 will be raised to 380k?

You should have warned at least, or revert back to the previous research points needed to unlock that plane

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