Stona

Feedback thread for economy changes. February 2017

The caernarvon is the most expensive tank of the game right know which (And it isn't in this list) is a nonsensical because it only has 152mm of turret armour and a 76.2mm LFP (Without enough slope to stop a 85mm from 5.0 tanks and this a 6.7 heavy) that can really easily be oneshoted frontally by a Tiger I and Panther I (both 5.7 this is 6.7 heavy) on these 2 weakspots and it only has 4 crew so it's really too easy to OHK compared with the Tiger II H and the T29 at the same br and also apds on these tanks is too expensive for the little damage it makes compared with the free AP-HE other nations have (Generally all apds that needs silver lions should have their cost reduced)

 

The M4A3E2 (76) W and the T26E1-1 are both """"Heavy"""" tanks without enough armour to stop anything shot at their hull even when angled with insufficient guns for their BR, so they both should get a lower repair cost

 

The T95 shouldn't be the most expensive American tank to repair in RB because it has this twice 360º (You can shot this from all directions) copula weakspot with only 76.2mm of armour (and at this br it will face tanks with ap-he with 235mm of penetration) that when penetrated with ANY AP with explosive filler the shells ricochets downwards putting the explosion at the center of the tank killing all the crew/ammo racking it really easily in only one shot and being LITERALLY the slowest tank in the game (12.7km/h max) it's really easy to get bombed in this thing and most of the planes with anti-ground capabilities will go for you because you are such a easy target for them,

 

And in AB the T95 should REALLY have lower repair cost than RB why you may ask?

Because these 2 really BIG reasons:

-Copula weakspot in arcade is always showed exactly at how much distance it is and because the arcade marker, meaning you will get one shot even more easily than RB because there's always a marker pointing exactly where the copula weakspot is all the time

-Suicide/Kamikaze planes will go for you: In arcade there's always been this problem with planes with rockets going at kamikaze runs (By shooting the rockets just before they crash into the ground) and these plane runs always prefer to go to slow/bigger targets, and the T95 is very probably the easiest and the more killed tank by planes in ab because of this, it's really too easy to go in a kamikaze run a kill a T95 (And most of the players will go for it instead of other tanks because you are such slow/big target that players WILL go for you)

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how are these repair costs even calculated ? 

 

Following examples are for RB

 

it's just looks like random numbers, same BR planes of the same class having repair costs diferences in the multiple thousands of silver lions

 

relatively mediocre planes just being ridiculously expensive (spitfire mkVc 14k to repair, really ?)

 

Ki-84 still costing 28k to repair despite it being the worse of the Ki-84 series and getting a BR increase to 5.3 according to the planned BR changes

 

so what's this about, just increasing the costs of popular planes or smtn, trying to balance vehicles so they don't get used too many times because the BR doesn't allow it to be properly balanced ?

 

I honestly don't get it...

 

The tank repair costs aren't really an issue since most just went up by a couple of hundred lions at the most, but the planes in RB, jesus christ...

 

IMO no plane in RB (or any mode) should cost more than 20k to repair, especially not rank 4 and 3 planes, also a lot of planes at around 5.0 BR costing 15-18k to repair is a bit much aswell isn't it ?

 

if you get shot down that means you would need at least 2 kills to break even (standard account no premium) or roughly 1 kill and one assist (with a premium account or booster)

 

this honestly isn't the way to go, if this is about balancing because some planes are more popular than others this is not the right way to go, you barely see some vehicles ingame anymore because they're so expensive and some of it's very similar counterparts are just that much cheaper

 

for instance, even with these proposed changes in the repair cost reduction for the Ki-84, why would I ever play the Ki-84ko when the Ki-84 otsu has better armament, the same performance and with the planned BR increase for the Ki-84ko (which i welcome) a nearly identical BR ?

 

then for the raidens, the J2M5 goes from 19k to 13k (which is ok for a rank IV fighter) but then the J2M3 stays at 19k ?

 

So why would anyone ever take the J2M3 over the M5 ?

 

or why would you play the spitfire mkVc with an amazing repair cost of 14 THOUSAND silverlions instead of the mk9 that outclasses it in every way except firepower?

 

sorry half of these cost changes just look like some RNG tbh

 

Edited by Jinxz
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*looks at changes for 7.0 jets in RB*

I have no idea what you're smoking but I want some of that.

That **** is good 

But let's just stay calm for a moment

Why I wrote what I did?

Repair costs are completly irrelevant.

Repair value should be set only by plane's performance and its armament that can ONLY be a reason to slightly reduce it, not increase.

Let's have a look at Me 262 A-1a and A-2a... 2 guns are apparently worth 15k?

See how little sense it makes?

Let's just assume every plane we have at 7.0 has similar performance to its counterparts 

Repair costs should look like this:
P80- 16k (it's a jet with very good performance, but meh guns -1.5k to the repair)

Me 262 A-1a- 18k

Meteor Mk 3- 18k

MiG-9- 18k

MiG-9/L- 22

Vampire- 18k

 

Repair costs could be also adjusted by battle rating also taking armament into consideration (as a reason to slightly reduce the cost as I said before)

I really hope Gaijin will read this and rethink these changes

Edited by AsBadAsBot
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What's the difference between German M4A2 (1944) and M4 748? Never heard of the first one, but their repair costs are different. Also what is Pz. 35(t) RM?

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Me 262 is pretty expensive now :(

And even thogh we have japanese cutbacks its still simply mind boggling how a prop costs more than an american tier 5 TOP jetfighter

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3 hours ago, Stona said:

- Reward for damaging enemy bases has been reduced by 10% for ranks 1-3 and by 15% for ranks 4-5 in all modes                                   

- Reward for destroying enemy bases has been reduced by 10% for ranks 1-3 and by 15% for ranks 4-5 in all modes     

yNlQWRM.jpg

 

but on a serious not what was the reason for this change! I didnt see any bomber pilots earning a lot of RP/SL from bombing bases since vehicles usually yield more profit.

 

As for the vehicles changes as allways good and not so good ones but all in all ok!

Edited by DonHornegger
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Lots of price increases... still some of the repairs for planes like Ki-84 ko (RB) pretty unreasonable. Also not sure why Ki-61 hei (RB) got a repair increase when its Br is still rather high for it's flight performance. Seeing as the Ki-100 was developed from the Ki-61-II, (logic not found) 150k less? Some of those late Spitfires took a major hit... Why bother playing Meteor Mk8 when its nearly 10k higher than Hunter? No change to that awful brick of a Do 335 A-0. Sad increase for the Me 262A-1a.

 

No change for Vk4501P I'm guessing.

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Speaking for SB:

 

What is the rationale behind the P-47D-28 so much more expensive than the D-25, and the F4U-1a USMC twice as expensive as the F4U-1a? And behind the CL-13a costing one third of what the German MiG-15bis does, and how come the German MiG-15bis costs twice as much as the Russian one?

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I like it! I was moving to bombing ground targets anyway...

 

but out on a different note, all I dislike is the increase in the price of the P-38L. I wasn't gonna fly it, but I have to purchase it to get farther in the grind... oh well.

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Is it just me or did both Leopard I tanks not make the list?:dntknw:

 

Anyway now the feedback:

 

Can we expect the Kuggelblitz to have a much lower repair cost in AB? I don't see why it should cost 23K SL to repair in AB, but less than 1200 SL in RB. The only explanation I can figure is it was high back when it had an all APCR belt. But now since it has different belts along with other SPAA, I feel it should drop down to about the same more or less in AB as in RB because in AB, if you get killed by aircraft or tanks, you lose 23K SL straight off the bat. And if you die 5 times, you lose over 100K SL. I see no one using the Kuggelblitz in Arcade anymore because of it's high cost. On the other hand, I commonly see it used in RB due to it's low repair cost and good reliability in RB. Would you consider lowering the cost of the Kuggelblitz in Arcade tank battles?

Edited by SAUBER_KH7
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Along with these changes are there changes planned to the time it takes to free repair in hangar/garage? Is it possible that free repair time be a function of crew skill? I paid to level crew skill and don't understand why there is a wait of 24hrs on free repair to use a BR 4.0 plane again.

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I would like to make some suggestions, because I noticed that there are some big differences in economies between some vehicles and I just cannot understand why ... :dntknw:

 

So let's start:

 

1) SU-100 => Cost to purchase should be reduced from 610.000 to 360.000 (or 310.000) SL because other tank destroyers at the same BR (6.3/6.7) like Jagdpanther, Ferdinand, Tortoise and M36 only costs between 300.000 - 360.000 SL.

2) T26E1-1 => Same as above, cost to purchase should be reduced from 610.000 to 360.000 SL because similar tanks at the same BR (6.7) like Kingtiger H, IS-2 1944 and Caernarvon  only costs 360.000 SL.

3) ASU-85 => Same as SU-100, its a Tier 4 tank destroyer with a BR of 6.7 so it should be equal in terms of cost to purchase like other 6.7 tanks.

__________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

690.000 for a BR7.0+/T5 tank like T32 is reasonable (but not for the tanks mentioned above). ;)

Also, I guess this could also be mentioned here:

Would it be possible to adjust the needed RP, SL cost for crew training and selecting a slot for your tank for the vehicles mentioned above, it seems that the cost for both is also too high!

(i.e. crew training SU-100: 610.000 SL vs. crew training Ferdinand: 360.000 SL or RP for T26E1-1: 220.000 vs RP for Kingtiger H: 120.000)

 

 

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2 hours ago, DonHornegger said:

yNlQWRM.jpg

 

but on a serious not what was the reason for this change! I didnt see any bomber pilots earning a lot of RP/SL from bombing bases since vehicles usually yield more profit.

 

As for the vehicles changes as allways good and not so good ones but all in all ok!

You could make an ok-ish amount of money in later tier bombers since it can be difficult for the enemy to get to your altitude before you drop your bombs, but it seems like Gaijin's over compensated by both increasing the repair cost of bombers (significantly in some cases) while also nerfing their reward.

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3 hours ago, Jinxz said:

IMO no plane in RB (or any mode) should cost more than 20k to repair, especially not rank 4 and 3 planes, also a lot of planes at around 5.0 BR costing 15-18k to repair is a bit much aswell isn't it ?

 

This is my same thought. And let me add:

 

I've been playing with premium account since a good amount of time, and what I enjoy the most about it (even more than the shortened grind) is that the boosted rewards allow me to be more "relaxed" and less stressed while playing. I know that I'm not "forced" to do exceptionally well in order to profit, so I can focus more on the fun and don't get too mad if something goes wrong, since i can easily compensate with a better match later. 

 

Yet, vehicles whose repair cost exceeds 15k SL (RB) eventually NEGATE this benefit even to premium players. An unfortunate negative streak with such vehicles can easily create a noticeable loss, so you may end up being forced to play something else to compensate, when you're already paying to avoid facing such problems. 

 

Perfect example: the Me262-a1 in RB. With a repair cost of 30k lions, and starting from stock (so even disadvantaged), I know that I will LOSE money while playing it, unless I manage to average a 4:1 KDR or better (yeah, sure). 

 

The effects of this? Congratulations, you effectively discouraged a player from using a vehicle he would like to play, after spending long time researching it. 

 

Is this a way to reduce the spam of specific vehicles? If so, it may work, but don't expect players to like it. 

 

If instead it is meant to balance the stats about the global earnings of a vehicle, well, don't expect us to like it as well. 

 

Personally, I'd MUCH rather see a vehicle being balanced in its "earning potential" by reducing its reward bonuses, than having repair costs skyrocket up to ridiculous heights. 

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3 hours ago, Cpt_Inkognito said:

Speaking for SB:

 

What is the rationale behind the P-47D-28 so much more expensive than the D-25, and the F4U-1a USMC twice as expensive as the F4U-1a? And behind the CL-13a costing one third of what the German MiG-15bis does, and how come the German MiG-15bis costs twice as much as the Russian one?

 

Some of the SB-related costs are just :facepalm:.

For example:

Panther II - slaughtered every other day by T54 - 10.000 SL

M18 Hellcat - one of the most competetive vehicles (even against Kingtigers) slaughtering Pz IV - 950 SL

F9F - Panther/Cougar - slaugtered by MiG15/17 34.000 SL

MiG15 (w/o "bis") - fighting exact the same opponents as later ones: 35.000 SL

F25 vs F2 sabre - (see problem of MiGs) F25 costs a whopping 33.000 SL

Object 906 - (a bit missplaced in early Cold-War-Lineup) but why - 10.000 SL

Centurion Mk10 - beast of a tank but why - 11.000 SL

Japanese Tiger - same as H1 but why 5140 vs 3590 SL

 

...and the list goes on and on

 

 

 

 

 

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Any word on RP changes? Like for tanks. It seems ridiculous that half of the T5 tanks cost either 320,000 RP or 380,000 RP, but tanks RP income is severely lacking. I would like to see some RP adjustments, like for example, reduce the RP cost for the M47 (ok I might be grinding it right now, but still)

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If I may voice my opinion on this, this may take some time to read.

First of all, I am glad that the Japanese repair costs have been reduced, but I feel like its not enough they are still way to high I would suggest a bigger decrease in the cost to repair. ( I am looking at the RB cost)

Also I feel like the increase of the repair cost of the me 262 a1 is a bit too much. Why are the American jet repair costs low like the p80 and such, while the 262 is double the repair cost? This would really turn off new 262 pilots, many of them will not be willing to pay such a high repair cost.  I too am a 262 pilot and seeing an increase in repair costs just really discourages me to fly it out. (Also RB cost I am looking at)

If this repair cost is based on statistics, please consider this, there will be new pilots that will unlock these planes and jets, what really makes them not want to fly it out, they have many reasons, and one of them is repair costs.

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Could you guys maybe format the spreadsheets to discriminate between game modes in different sheets and ideally in ground vehicles and aircraft as well? It's literally hell looking through these and trying to find the vehicles you're interested in.

 

EDIT: Oh, and why do the 51 D-10 and D-20 differ in repair price? IIRC they're the exact same plane with the exact same amount and choice of ordnance.

 

EDIT2: Actually, they're not. Which begs the question why the latter production run has access to fewer ordnance options.

Edited by PainGod85

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I like the 30% spawn cost decrease for SB :good:

As for detailed changes - I wonder if some of them will go in pair with BR changes (I've not yet seen proposed changes for SB). If so then they look good but if not - I really think that it would be better to for example move BF109E1 from 1.7 to 2.0 in sim rather than increasing spawn cost for clubbing reserves in EC1.



Last: can we get "EC spawn cost" in the plane stat card if we select SB mode?
I know it was 0.7 of max repair and now it will be more like 0.5*max repair but why do I have to calculate that myself? is it that hard? :D

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I will have to question a few things that I see here but I will try to remain concise and constructive.

I personally do not see what appears to be a flat increase in repair bill for every bomber that I've looked at. American, British, Russian, German, and Japanese.

I am aware there is in Realistic Battles a bit of a problem related to the Tu-4, BV 238,  B-29, etc. As well as the high speed and run away Canberras and such.
However I have to bring to your attention that this is not a flat out "bombers are OP" scenario in Realistic battles and for the most part bombers struggled to do their objective or even survive to even see the objective.


The problem
Some bombers I can easily think off due to playing Britain mainly are the Stirlings and Lancasters, where at BR 5.0, 5.3,and  5.7. (No changes in BR in the BR changes) are at such a high Battle Rating that most single engine fighters can easily intercept them without any form of resistance and I have seen similar performances in the Yer-2, G4's and Ki-49's, etc...
I do not have the same statistics that you do Gaijin but according to "Thunderskill" most bombers are rarely played, that includes nearly all of the British bombers as well as several other bombers with the only popular aircraft being the H8K2,  BV 238,  B7A2, Pe-8, Tu-2S,  B-29, and the Il-28. However Thunderskill doesn't give me the TNT equivilant damage that each bomber does in average... I can assume that even if these bombers are doing the objective of bombing the bombing points and then moving onto the airfield all under 40 minutes which is a big assumption to make.
It still leaves the vast majority of other bombers in a problematic situation due to the reduction of SL gain per match and Increase in repair cost .

Unless Gaijin is planning to implement a large game mode change such as removing the bombing, attack, and destroy the enemy team win criteria in place for a ticket based system so that bombing the enemy airfield doesn't win the game automatically or the entire enemy team but each bit of damage to the base, or each player destroyed, or each tank killed, etc. Causes the tickets to go lower or some system like that with also a change to how bombing works... Or some other large game changing mechanics coming soon. I honestly can't say where this reduction in SL gain or increase in repair bills for bombers exactly is justified for an across the board 'nerf'.  I heard that Gaijin is planning to work on the German and British bombers for a bit and with the recent FM fix for the Avro Lancaster and hint that the Lincoln is being added I do wounder if this will help lower the BR of the late tier 3-4 bombers in the UK tech tree among other changes but It doesn't give me any confidence in any bombing/bomber overhaul for other trees.

If there is no huge bomber overhaul planned to happen soon then I do hope that the reward changes do not come into play- or at least increase the reward % on most of the bombers that currently struggle to even dent or survive to reach the bombing points.


From my personal opinion
Bombers are not exactly in a good place in War Thunder currently (which I may make a more detailed suggestion in the forums at a later date).
Most matches rarely win as a response to strategic bombing unless it's in the B-29 to Tu-4 tier but even then I still have much more victories by simply destroying the enemy team (the most common victory condition achieved). While destroying an enemy plane 1 by 1 hurts the enemy teams ability to fight back or do anything- Nothing happens with each tonne of TNT damage being dealt to help your team as missions are rarely ever won with tickets. Each Tonne of TNT being dropped on the enemy airfield does nothing unless it so happens to land on a repairing aircraft. The only time it matters is the last bomb dropped to finish off the airfield which after the increase health of each Bombing Point and some airfields... is virtually impossible on certain maps like Norway Tier 1-3 to do in a reasonable time or within the 60 minute time frame.

I am not saying to increase the reward of bombing and make bombers free to fly. However for the past few years War Thunder is steadily reducing the combat effectiveness of Bombers and at some points bombers feel neglected such as the Lancaster mk III tail gunner doesn't converge with your dorsal gunner, or the G5N1's tail gunner doesn't have it's Z axis rotation to allow it to give it a much wider range of attack..

I do hope there is a large change coming up to make bombers more effective in terms of the impact of the gameplay/ the match. Or something in the form of reward or objectives because I am worried that sometime in the future Bombers will become just a forgotten part of the game...

I currently have played bombers according to War Thunder for a total of 14d's... but in the past 4 years I've played WT, I was only involved in the base destruction in 3 games in WT in RB airforces which to quickly confirm- none of which was in my Lancaster or Stirling. 2 of the matches was in B-17's nearly 2 years ago and recently in a Bv 238 just before the bombing points have an increased health.

 

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