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T34 vs Panther D - Balanced => NOT !


Black_Barronn
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First of all, i'd apreciate if some modders will move this topic in the correct section if you fell it doesn't belong here!

 

Subject:

 

T34 = BUFFED AND OP as HELL ! why? =>

 

1. t34s reloading time is faster than IRL - vs - Panther D reloading time nerffed as hell 

2. t34s gun stabilizing in 1/3 times - vs - Panther D that IRL than despite having the best suspension of WW2, when coming to a halt the Panther takes an excessive amount of time for the gun to stabilize

3. t34s despite having tinner tracks and more rubbish than panther, t34s tracks absorb latterall shells from any distance possible and bounces any tipe of shells no matter how you shoot their tinny tracks the shell bounces 99% - vs - Panther D - if t34 shoots you in the track, you get tracked and the sharpnells of the round ignite the tank on fire and takes you out in one shot. 

4. t34s armour it's broken as hell, it bounces most things fired at it, like them were bricks - vs - Panther D even if angled corectly you get one shoted trough upper frontal plate. 

5. t34s turret ring and cannon brench, engine, etc. (internal parts) - have like extra protection, becouse if you shoot t34s turret you only kill some crew members and internal parts only turn yellow - vs - Panther D broken gun mantlet, if t34 shoots your turret you're dead - how? turret ring black and gun brench black, 3 crew members dead and tank starts burning.. (and you won't be able to stabilize the panther's gun faster - even if you stay still - than a moving t34 - and this is a proved fact)

6.  t34s ammo always do the Biggest damage when pen - vs - Panther D ammo wich tends to either overpen anything or either bounce anything. (even flat is2 lfp from 2 meters.) - another example - from close range you have to shoot a t34 side 2-3 times to kill it, coz overpen while it can one shoot you.

7. t34s turret have a strange tendency to bounce shells from any range, so avoid shooting at it - vs - Panther D, even if turret is angled you get penned from any range. becouse it's purpouselly broken modelled to be crap. 

8. t34s burns longer than panthers and when the engine is dead or drivers out it can magically move. 

9.t34s battle ratting lower.. 

ETC. 

 

one more thing (prooved facts) about gun stabilizing:

 

The panther had one of the best - if not the best suspensions of the war. It's oscilation was one of the lowest. Additionally to torsion bars, it had 4 shock absorbers specifically to prevent excessive swinging back and forth. It was also one of the most balanced and stable gun-plattforms of the war.

 

 

BALANCED GAME?! => NOT !  Balanced in favoring some nations maybe. 

 

So in my oppinion this resulted in a BROKEN GAME!

 

 

What are your toughts about panthers vs t34s and m18s too, i mean, you overpen if you shoot with panther D an m18 and it takes several shoots to kill it but when you shoot with the russian t34 it takes one shot to kill m18, why? becouse t34 use post war ammo? 

How can i have a good time while playing panther D? i mean i know "flank and spank" but t34s flank and spank before me. 

 

Thanks, have a good day!

 

L.E. = Ersatz m10 (Panther G) vs t34 85:

 

Edited by Black_Barronn
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1 minute ago, Koty1996 said:

Sure, except you cannot penetrate the UFP of Panther with standard rounds. Much bias. Such OP.

sarcastic? so if you cannot pen UFP of Panther with standard rounds what? no one shoots at UFP anyway..  AND when panther gets uptired on 6.7 have to face t29s and other craps that shoot heatfs and you have to deal with them shooting at their little spots and pray to pen not kill them in one shots. your point?

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40 minutes ago, Black_Barronn said:

 

 

1. t34s reloading time is faster than IRL - vs - Panther D reloading time nerffed as hell 

Both have comparable shell weight and length

2. t34s gun stabilizing in 1/3 times - vs - Panther D that IRL than despite having the best suspension of WW2, when coming to a halt the Panther takes an excessive amount of time for the gun to stabilize

Longer, heavier gun with higher center of gravity is why. 

3. t34s despite having tinner tracks and more rubbish than panther, t34s tracks absorb latterall shells from any distance possible and bounces any tipe of shells no matter how you shoot their tinny tracks the shell bounces 99% - vs - Panther D - if t34 shoots you in the track, you get tracked and the sharpnells of the round ignite the tank on fire and takes you out in one shot. 

Happens to all tanks including T-54, and the Jumbo Sherman

4. t34s armour it's broken as hell, it bounces most things fired at it, like them were bricks - vs - Panther D even if angled corectly you get one shoted trough upper frontal plate. 

Your not supposed to angle the turret of panther, and just shoot to the right of the gun on the T-34

5. t34s turret ring and cannon brench, engine, etc. (internal parts) - have like extra protection, becouse if you shoot t34s turret you only kill some crew members and internal parts only turn yellow - vs - Panther D broken gun mantlet, if t34 shoots your turret you're dead - how? turret ring black and gun brench black, 3 crew members dead and tank starts burning.. (and you won't be able to stabilize the panther's gun faster - even if you stay still - than a moving t34 - and this is a proved fact)

No it does, T-34 gets One shotted by a shot in the hull

6.  t34s ammo always do the Biggest damage when pen - vs - Panther D ammo wich tends to either overpen anything or either bounce anything. (even flat is2 lfp from 2 meters.) - another example - from close range you have to shoot a t34 side 2-3 times to kill it, coz overpen while it can one shoot you. 

Thats why the penetration suck on the 85mm, and one shot is still enough to kill the T-34

7. t34s turret have a strange tendency to bounce shells from any range, so avoid shooting at it - vs - Panther D, even if turret is angled you get penned from any range. becouse it's purpouselly broken modelled to be crap. 

Already said this

8. t34s burns longer than panthers and when the engine is dead or drivers out it can magically move. 

Maybe idk about that & dont you think that a T-34 still has momentum after you knocked its engine out of killed the driver?

9.t34s battle ratting lower.. Because its not as GOOD

ETC. 

 

 

 

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13 minutes ago, Black_Barronn said:

sarcastic? so if you cannot pen UFP of Panther with standard rounds what? no one shoots at UFP anyway..  AND when panther gets uptired on 6.7 have to face t29s and other craps that shoot heatfs and you have to deal with them shooting at their little spots and pray to pen not kill them in one shots. your point?

This thread is not about T29's

 

It is about T-34's. It says right in the opening post that T-34's have nuke rounds and can penetrate the UFP. They cannot. Simple as that. Unless you use APCR or something like that.

 

All the "points" are either highly subjective or wrong. I also highly doubt this person has ever played T-34's to try and compare them to Panthers. I wanted to talk about each of them, but the post right above mine says enough.

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1 minute ago, Koty1996 said:

 

It is about T-34's. It says right in the opening post that T-34's have nuke rounds and can penetrate the UFP. They cannot. Simple as that. Unless you use APCR or something like that.

oh pardon me, just for you to know, actually the t34 shell CAN pen the UFP of panther D. 

 

https://wiki.warthunder.com/index.php?title=T-34-85

 

4 minutes ago, Koty1996 said:

I also highly doubt this person has ever played T-34's to try and compare them to Panthers.

i actually did played t34s. 

 your point again? 

 

oh, let me guess "it's ok komrade, it's for balance"

 

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I'll answer, I guess as a Russian fanboy, as I play my T34-85s a lot. Everything since they re-worked pen greater than armor physics, one shot kills the T34 (well not everything...US 75 mms don't) including M18s, Panthers, Tigers, 76 Shermans. You don't one shot a Panther frontally very often (sides are a different story as are with most tanks). Given that Panthers mostly are up tiered (for me, everything is and I face 6.3 tanks regularly with my T34s) and facing 6.7s , I'd think T34s would be the least of your worries (T-44s, IS-2s, KT, T29s come to mind). A year ago I'd say some of your complaints were valid....since the last updates, I'd have to disagree.

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20 minutes ago, Black_Barronn said:

oh pardon me, just for you to know, actually the t34 shell CAN pen the UFP of panther D. 

 

https://wiki.warthunder.com/index.php?title=T-34-85

Oh, how comes I only penetrate it when I am above the Panther and perfectly lined up?

Also, what is that link for, is it supposed to document T-34 being able to penetrate the plate? How. It does not show penetration under angle.

 

 

Quote

i actually did played t34s. 

 your point again? 

 

oh, let me guess "it's ok komrade, it's for balance"

Not "For balance". My point is that it is "at least balanced".

 

I mean, two can play this game:
oh, let me guess "russian bias, much op, such unbeatable" :good:

 

The only thing I can tell you - learn to aim. If I can take out T-34's with solid-shot ammo, you sure as hell can do with Panther.

Edited by Koty1996
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35 minutes ago, Black_Barronn said:

sarcastic? so if you cannot pen UFP of Panther with standard rounds what? no one shoots at UFP anyway..  AND when panther gets uptired on 6.7 have to face t29s and other craps that shoot heatfs and you have to deal with them shooting at their little spots and pray to pen not kill them in one shots. your point?

Except the Panther doesn't have to aim for weak spots on tanks only 0.3 BR above it, while the T-34 85 does. It's very hard to seriously claim that the Panther D is in a poor spot right now.

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1 hour ago, Revan131 said:

oh look... all the Russian fanboys coming in to insult the OP but totally ignore every point of his post.  

What point?

There is none

Every single thing he pointed out is either:

A lie

Wrong

Without any source to prove it

Or historical

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This thread is at least half a year too late. The Panthers are as good as they can get.

Since they fixed overmatch and the damage of low filler guns the T-34 is nothing more than a roadkill (unless the damn buggers get on your side unnoticed).

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very smart replies. 

 

Comparing panther D with t34 85 i can tell you in this game t34 85 is by far better on close combat (like all maps). turret faster, better mobility, better ammo etc. 

 

38 minutes ago, Kawolski_VII said:

Except the Panther doesn't have to aim for weak spots on tanks only 0.3 BR above it, while the T-34 85 does. It's very hard to seriously claim that the Panther D is in a poor spot right now.

:)) yea sure, except panther is taller and can't reverse as fast as t34 can and it's most Stronger thing is the UFP. 

except that if you meet a t34 by the time you stopped and try aiming at it, your'e mostly knoked out by that t34. 

if you get shot in the turret you die no matter what. (even if you don't die from that shot, your canon brench and turet ring is out, and also 3 crew members dead, repair time 40 sec.. in 40 sec that t34 can put another round in the turret and that's it)

 

very "stronk" arguments komrades. i still remain at what i'm thinking, t34s better than panthers. 

 

And NO, i don't have any problems in taking them out, if - review first post.

Edited by Black_Barronn
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1 hour ago, Black_Barronn said:

very smart replies. 

 

Comparing panther D with t34 85 i can tell you in this game t34 85 is by far better on close combat (like all maps). turret faster, better mobility, better ammo etc. 

 

:)) yea sure, except panther is taller and can't reverse as fast as t34 can and it's most Stronger thing is the UFP. 

except that if you meet a t34 by the time you stopped and try aiming at it, your'e mostly knoked out by that t34. 

if you get shot in the turret you die no matter what. (even if you don't die from that shot, your canon brench and turet ring is out, and also 3 crew members dead, repair time 40 sec.. in 40 sec that t34 can put another round in the turret and that's it)

 

very "stronk" arguments komrades. i still remain at what i'm thinking, t34s better than panthers. 

 

And NO, i don't have any problems in taking them out, if - review first post.

The T-34 is definitely better in close quarters, but not on maps like Kursk, Mozdok, Hurtgen Forest, or Fields of Normandy to name a few.

 

The T-34 has a lower profile, but worse gun depression which can make it difficult to use on hilly maps, and I'd venture to say there are more of those than there are CQC maps. And I'm not sure why you're having trouble against T-34's if both of you roll around a corner face to face. He has to stop and aim specifically for your turret, while you can just point and click anywhere to kill him. But if you're complaining about a stationary T-34 shooting you while you try to brake and get your gun pointed at him, then no **** sherlock, he's going to beat you to the shot.

 

It sounds like you're playing the Panther too aggressively and expecting it to do well in close quarters when it can't and won't. That doesn't mean it's a bad tank though. It's bloody fast even being so heavy, so you can get to the flanks and set up for the T-34's and M-18's that come rushing in. Plus virtually nothing at or below your BR can get through your UFP, which makes life harder for your enemies and easier for you. If I had to venture a guess, you haven't actually played the T-34 and have no experience what it's like being on the other side of the gun sight. Definitely try it if you get a chance. You might be surprised by some of your assumptions.

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3 hours ago, Black_Barronn said:

First of all, i'd apreciate if some modders will move this topic in the correct section if you fell it doesn't belong here!

 

Subject:

 

T34 = BUFFED AND OP as HELL ! why? =>

 

1. t34s reloading time is faster than IRL - vs - Panther D reloading time nerffed as hell 

2. t34s gun stabilizing in 1/3 times - vs - Panther D that IRL than despite having the best suspension of WW2, when coming to a halt the Panther takes an excessive amount of time for the gun to stabilize

3. t34s despite having tinner tracks and more rubbish than panther, t34s tracks absorb latterall shells from any distance possible and bounces any tipe of shells no matter how you shoot their tinny tracks the shell bounces 99% - vs - Panther D - if t34 shoots you in the track, you get tracked and the sharpnells of the round ignite the tank on fire and takes you out in one shot. 

4. t34s armour it's broken as hell, it bounces most things fired at it, like them were bricks - vs - Panther D even if angled corectly you get one shoted trough upper frontal plate. 

5. t34s turret ring and cannon brench, engine, etc. (internal parts) - have like extra protection, becouse if you shoot t34s turret you only kill some crew members and internal parts only turn yellow - vs - Panther D broken gun mantlet, if t34 shoots your turret you're dead - how? turret ring black and gun brench black, 3 crew members dead and tank starts burning.. (and you won't be able to stabilize the panther's gun faster - even if you stay still - than a moving t34 - and this is a proved fact)

6.  t34s ammo always do the Biggest damage when pen - vs - Panther D ammo wich tends to either overpen anything or either bounce anything. (even flat is2 lfp from 2 meters.) - another example - from close range you have to shoot a t34 side 2-3 times to kill it, coz overpen while it can one shoot you.

7. t34s turret have a strange tendency to bounce shells from any range, so avoid shooting at it - vs - Panther D, even if turret is angled you get penned from any range. becouse it's purpouselly broken modelled to be crap. 

8. t34s burns longer than panthers and when the engine is dead or drivers out it can magically move. 

9.t34s battle ratting lower.. 

ETC. 

 

one more thing (prooved facts) about gun stabilizing:

 

The panther had one of the best - if not the best suspensions of the war. It's oscilation was one of the lowest. Additionally to torsion bars, it had 4 shock absorbers specifically to prevent excessive swinging back and forth. It was also one of the most balanced and stable gun-plattforms of the war.

 

 

BALANCED GAME?! => NOT !  Balanced in favoring some nations maybe. GOOD JOB! 

 

So in my oppinion this resulted in a BROKEN GAME!

 

 

What are your toughts about panthers vs t34s and m18s too, i mean, you overpen if you shoot with panther D an m18 and it takes several shoots to kill it but when you shoot with the russian t34 it takes one shot to kill m18, why? becouse t34 use post war ammo? 

How can i have a good time while playing panther D? i mean i know "flank and spank" but t34s flank and spank before me. 

 

Thanks, have a good day!

Ok so first of all I am very much a german tank Lover, so dont say that I am a russian fan boy, because I am not.

Look I have both the Panther D and the T-34-85. I don't have any the problems that you do. I will try to all the points that you have brought up as best as I can. So here I go:

 

One thing that should be noted tho is that the Panther D is easily the worst Panther of them all (no doubt), so we have to take that into account.

1. There is no doubt that reload rate and so on is not 100% accurate. Relaoding on the move and so one is rather unrealistic, however in a normal 1v1 fight the one who gets the first shot off usually wins. That has always been my experince. That is of course if you aim corretly.

2. That is your mind messing with you. What actually happens is that (depending on the speed) that when you are stopping the nose of the tank goes down. What happens is that you keep aiming the circle at the T-34, however when it comes to a stop the gun is aiming too high and since the gun on the Panther D moves very slowly that makes it harder to get on target quicker. The great suppension was in the Panther A, G, and F. Most Panther Ds at the battle of Kursk broke down because of the suspension. This was of Course later fixed with the A and the G.

3. I personally have never had a problem with this. I think it might just be you having bad aim or likely that is one of the armor bugs the nice guy high on the post talked about.

4. I don't know how you angle, but nothing passes through the upper plate of the Panther when I angle it. It might be that you think the angle is greater than it actually is, which happens sometimes to me as well. As to the T-34 bouncing shots, I can bounce shots in many tanks, however with the T-34 it is tricky. The turret is weak, but I encourage you to fire at the hull, between the driver and the machine gunner. That is an instant kill with the Panthers gun.

5. Once again you are doing it wrong. If you have the back of a T-34-85 shoot the back of the turret. If you have the side, shoot between the tracks where the ammo is located. If you have the front, once again shoot between the driver and the machine gunner instant kill. And btw the Panther is filled with ammo so dont take out every single shells. Take about 30 to 40 Shells max!

https://wiki.warthunder.com/index.php?title=File:Ammoracks_T-34-85_D5T.png https://wiki.warthunder.com/index.php?title=File:Ammoracks_PantherD.png

6. T-34 has more explosive filler if I remeber corretly with is historical as well, however it has less pen than the Panther so go figure. Shoot at the right spots and you will have no problem. Also why the **** would you engage a T-34-85 at close range with a Panther D???

7. At certain angle the turret of the T-34-85 is unpennable and it is akward to shoot at, however that is because it is more rounded. The Panthers turret side is flat and not well armored. What did you expet. None of this is done on purpose and for the times where it does go crazy that is because the game still has a lot of armour bugs.

8. I would like to see an example of that. In all of my War Thunder tank games I have never seen that.

9. Battle Ratings are a problem yes, but what about the 88 flak truck? It is in my opinion very good (almost too good). BRs are not perfect, however i dont think that it should be uptiered by much, if it would be it would be useless. I personally think it should be 5.3 and 5.7, however where they are right now they are fine. I dont want them to fight king tigers every match. I think the Germans are the ones that are a bit overtiered at that BR.

Please just rememeber that the Panther D is not a good tank in my opinion. The Panther A and G is much better. In a 1 on 1 i would take the Panther on an open field any day and in the city the T-34-85 always. There is no russian bias.

 

 

Lastly i have had more trouble trying to kill an M-18 with a Panther than a T-34-85. The T-34 simply has more HE filler, however even without that I SHOOT AT THE AMMO. That is always a one shot. I don't have a problem with any of those tanks.

5 minutes ago, Kawolski_VII said:

The T-34 is definitely better in close quarters, but not on maps like Kursk, Mozdok, Hurtgen Forest, or Fields of Normandy to name a few.

 

The T-34 has a lower profile, but worse gun depression which can make it difficult to use on hilly maps, and I'd venture to say there are more of those than there are CQC maps. And I'm not sure why you're having trouble against T-34's if both of you roll around a corner face to face. He has to stop and aim specifically for your turret, while you can just point and click anywhere to kill him. But if you're complaining about a stationary T-34 shooting you while you try to brake and get your gun pointed at him, then no **** sherlock, he's going to beat you to the shot.

 

It sounds like you're playing the Panther too aggressively and expecting it to do well in close quarters when it can't and won't. That doesn't mean it's a bad tank though. It's bloody fast even being so heavy, so you can get to the flanks and set up for the T-34's and M-18's that come rushing in. Plus virtually nothing at or below your BR can get through your UFP, which makes life harder for your enemies and easier for you. If I had to venture a guess, you haven't actually played the T-34 and have no experience what it's like being on the other side of the gun sight. Definitely try it if you get a chance. You might be surprised by some of your assumptions.

Exactly what I am thinking as well. That Panther D is a long range tank not an urban close quaters tank.

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2 hours ago, Revan131 said:

typical Russian/allied fanboy, all you can do is insult.   the OP had a long list of points.   either refute them or shut the .... up.

No, we just said that the claims are not justified.

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im a russian tanks players, everybody its wellcome to see my stats (RB): 

20170128104709_1.jpg

 

as u can see all my favorite tanks are SOVIETS, even if i play every faction to TIER V (even japanese) 75% of the time im playing SOVIETS.

 

about the topic i have to say the OP its wrong, with the new buff of low caliber cannons PANTHER D its better than t34-85/shermans/m18/TIGER H1/E and for me its fine at 5.7, but in the other hand the problem of GERMAN TIER 3 its TIGERS H1/E, this 2 tanks are heavy uptier, now with the same buff of low caliber cannons that make panther D a very good tank, also makes TIGERS H1/E very bad but why?:

 

now even shermans are able to kill TIGERS 1 with 1 shoot at front armor, after the nerf of  bouncing shoots and the buff of damage of low caliber guns TIGERS 1 are not better but at the same time not worst than t34-85 and m18, but the problem its both TIGERS 1 have high BR than them.

 

the problem with players in WT its 75% of the community dont know how to play, they pick a medium tank like t34-85 and they use it as heavy, they pick a light tank as m18 and they also use it as heavy, they take a spaa and also they want to use it as heavy, thats why for this kind of players everything its armor+gun and they total forget key features of tanks like turret traverse speed, reverse speed and low profile. this kind of features that are key for players that know how to play every tank role and are ignored by players that dont know how to play and for this same reason GAIJIN dont take it in count when they choice the BR of a tank.

 

the best example of my point its M-18, m18 its much better in any way less armor than m4a3 76w, but in WT m18 have less BR than this sherman, just cous this sheman have more armor, and now if i say that M4A3 76W deserve a lower BR and m18 a higher BR u will see 10 replays of this low skilled players saying "GERMAN FUN BOY", and thats cous this players play they m18 as heavy tanks and they total fail playing it.

 

well lets to no make this post to long i think for balance TIER 3:

 

1.- TIGER H1 ahould be 5.3 and TIGER E 5.7, 

2.- m18 should be 5.3

3.- is-1 should be 5.3

4.- every sherman 76 should go down 0.3

5.- heavy tank Nº 6 should be 5.3

Edited by nayfas2
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nayfas2

totally agree.. 

 

m18s are cancer.. just got killed in sim battles by an m18 that i've shooted it's side 4 times.. with panther D .. first time, engine, then ammo rack didn't blew up.. engine on fire.. turret crew dead.. etc. then it turns it's turret while i reloading and points at panther D turret and guess what.. "turret ring black, canon brench black, 3 crew members dead" WTF ! 

 

the game is very balanced (NOT) i again don't have any issues with t34s coz they are easy killable BUT sometimes i swear i can't understand how in the hell if i shoot it's engine in the next second he can already turn it's turret and point it's and takes out panthers. why? why t34s never bounce turrets and so on while panthers, despite having a better gun, bounce the T34s troll armour. 

Edited by Black_Barronn
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21 minutes ago, Black_Barronn said:

the game is very balanced (NOT) i again don't have any issues with t34s coz they are easy killable BUT sometimes i swear i can't understand how in the hell if i shoot it's engine in the next second he can already turn it's turret and point it's and takes out panthers. why? why t34s never bounce turrets and so on while panthers, despite having a better gun, bounce the T34s troll armour. 

I've bounced off Panther turrets all the time. Can you get me some recent footage of you bouncing off the troll armor?

Shooting engine on any tank will yeild the same result. Its annoying, but it happens. I've shot at leopards in the engine all the time for no damage.

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8 minutes ago, PoIikarpov said:

I've bounced off Panther turrets all the time. Can you get me some recent footage of you bouncing off the troll armor?

Shooting engine on any tank will yeild the same result. Its annoying, but it happens. I've shot at leopards in the engine all the time for no damage.

play germans and you'll see for yourself 

 

i'm not talkin about shootin engine and nothing, i'm talkin despite let's say the tank that i shoot it's moving, and i flank it and shoot it's engine in the next second it has it's gun pointed at me. turret traverse speed and gunners abilitty to aim so quick and so well its hillarious. 

Edited by Black_Barronn
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9 minutes ago, Black_Barronn said:

play germans and you'll see for yourself 

My Heavy Tank No6 firing the exact same round as the Tiger has not bounced off of the T-34s body  in any large and memorable amount.

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4 hours ago, Black_Barronn said:

nayfas2

totally agree.. 

 

m18s are cancer.. just got killed in sim battles by an m18 that i've shooted it's side 4 times.. with panther D .. first time, engine, then ammo rack didn't blew up.. engine on fire.. turret crew dead.. etc. then it turns it's turret while i reloading and points at panther D turret and guess what.. "turret ring black, canon brench black, 3 crew members dead" WTF ! 

 

the game is very balanced (NOT) i again don't have any issues with t34s coz they are easy killable BUT sometimes i swear i can't understand how in the hell if i shoot it's engine in the next second he can already turn it's turret and point it's and takes out panthers. why? why t34s never bounce turrets and so on while panthers, despite having a better gun, bounce the T34s troll armour. 

yes but dont forget PANTHERS are fine where they are, the GERMAN tanks that needs a lower BR at TIER 3 are TIGERS 1 and no PANTHERS.

 

atm PANTHER D its much better tank than TIGER H1 and E

Edited by nayfas2
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