Fallenkezef

Respected Foes

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To my knowledge, there were no SS combat or police troops in North Africa.

Only some administrative personnel, amongst them propaganda troops.

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SS are vastly overated and used as a German "boogieman" and general scapegoat.

 

The majority of warcrimes against non-Jewish civilians on the Eastern front where committed by regular Wehrmacht. Mostly due to the anti-slav propoganda.

 

Afrika Korps did not commit warcrimes bescausr there was no SS. Afrika Korps did not commit warcrimes becausr the local population stayed neutral (no partisan actions) and neither side where fed a diet if propoganda about how the other guy was sub-human.

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1 hour ago, Fallenkezef said:

SS are vastly overated and used as a German "boogieman" and general scapegoat.

 

The majority of warcrimes against non-Jewish civilians on the Eastern front where committed by regular Wehrmacht. Mostly due to the anti-slav propoganda.

 

Afrika Korps did not commit warcrimes bescausr there was no SS. Afrika Korps did not commit warcrimes becausr the local population stayed neutral (no partisan actions) and neither side where fed a diet if propoganda about how the other guy was sub-human.

yeah i guess some people that, for example today, say "i wouldnt have done that" don't know or dont want to believe how effective both propanda and partisan actions etc. can be... it's not too much different from the refugee scare/Muslim scare currently sweeping over the western world... or the "worries" about the japanese citizens of the US during WWII...

 

and for a Soldier that's even worse... did that old man right now really only want to help you when he asked if he could help you with the car or did he want to place some timed explosives on it? And don't the guys all say that these slavs are ready to backstab you any time? And what was that story about the 3 Panzergrenadiers from the other unit that went to a Village to ask for direction and never returned?

 

I can see how easily it can end up with a "better safe than sorry" approach for Soldiers... especially for those that already were under the receiving end of partisan attacks... you wouldnt like having 3 of your 10 AT-Guns blow up due to sabotage while facing a soviet assault...

Edited by RohmMohc
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1 hour ago, Fallenkezef said:

The anti-Italian thing is down to Churchill to be honest.

It's true, but Churchill represented the whole Great Britain so he's behavior conditioned the entire population, creating false myths extremely difficult to remove.

 

46 minutes ago, Stahlvormund101 said:

To my knowledge, there were no SS combat or police troops in North Africa.

No, only some Blackshirts, and they were not even remotely comparable to their german colleagues, the SS, in terms of fanatism and cruelty. What i want to say is that the Germans are not particularly interested in the North Africa Theatre, so no SS had to be sent there and the war could had been fight with... ''good manners'', if such a thing can be said about war...

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55 minutes ago, RohmMohc said:

yeah i guess some people that, for example today, say "i wouldnt have done that" don't know or dont want to believe how effective both propanda and partisan actions etc. can be... it's not too much different from the refugee scare/Muslim scare currently sweeping over the western world... or the "worries" about the japanese citizens of the US during WWII...

 

and for a Soldier that's even worse... did that old man right now really only want to help you when he asked if he could help you with the car or did he want to place some timed explosives on it? And don't the guys all say that these slavs are ready to backstab you any time? And what was that story about the 3 Panzergrenadiers from the other unit that went to a Village to ask for direction and never returned?

 

It can see how easily it can end up with a "better safe than sorry" approach for Soldiers... especially for those that already were under the receiving end of partisan attacks... you wouldnt like having 3 of your 10 AT-Guns blow up due to sabotage while facing a soviet assault...

 

Yup and add to that a military heirarchy that actively supports and encourages you to lash out at civilians.

 

I wont condone what happened in WW2, but from a pyschological view it's understandable.

 

British and Americans acted in a similat (if much smaller scale) fashion in Aden and Vietnam

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o my knowledge, there were no SS combat or police troops in North Africa.

Only some administrative personnel, amongst them propaganda troops.

 

Einsatzkommando Tunis was quite active and cooperated with Rommel and Italian administration in killing of Jews.

Edited by Ulatersk
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51 minutes ago, Ulatersk said:

 

Einsatzkommando Tunis was quite active and cooperated with Rommel and Italian administration in killing of Jews.

Really? This evaded my research so far. Got a link so I can read up?

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Really? This evaded my research so far. Got a link so I can read up?

 

There was some Pogroming when Afrika Korps caputred Benghazi.

 

Einsatzgruppe also advised and helped build concentration camps in cooperation with Italian administration for Lybian and Tunisian Jews, afaik with up to 10000 jews interred, some were controlled by Germans, some by Italians.

 

When it comes to direct war crimes, they killed quite a few hundred PoWs from  the Jewish Brigade they captured. Such warcrimes were also universal, with NZ troops being mentioned quite a few timeskilling both italian and german pows.

 

 

Maurice M. Romani wrote a good book about the fate of lybian jews, and Mallmann and Cuppers wrote epxlicitly about the death squads in North Africa and the plan to destroy the jewish population in Palestine.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited by Ulatersk
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On 23/01/2017 at 5:34 AM, Fallenkezef said:

The majority of warcrimes against non-Jewish civilians on the Eastern front where committed by regular Wehrmacht. Mostly due to the anti-slav propoganda.

That and the fact that Field-Marshall Erich Von Manstein made looting and pillaging the official occupation policy for the Wehrmacht....

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1 hour ago, Been_Benuane said:

That and the fact that Field-Marshall Erich Von Manstein made looting and pillaging the official occupation policy for the Wehrmacht....

It should be noted that this itself was an order to von Manstein.

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Hm... Well Hungary didn't fight against the Allies directly (aside from our fighter pilots), but since they were a foe of Hungary... I say General Dwight D. "Ike" Eisenhower. As far as I know he really cared about his troops - unlike Patton - that's very respectful in my opinion. As for the Russians... Sadly I can't say anyone who I might respect. Maybe the supply troops who gave food to the starving civilians.

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Seems everyone knows Fallschirmjäger was most honourable . . . so how about whose best??

 

in order of best performance to worst performance Western Front:

 

94th Infantry Division (Wehrmacht)

4th Fallschirmjäger-Division

16th Panzer Division (Wehrmacht)

11th Panzer Division (Wehrmacht)

1st Fallschirm-Panzer Division Hermann Göring

US 1st Armored Division

US 88th Infantry Division

362nd Infantry Division (Wehrmacht)
65th Infantry Division (Wehrmacht)
German 3rd Motorized Infantry Division - 3. Infanterie-Division (mot.)

XIII SS-Panzer Corps

15th Panzergrenadier Division (Wehrmacht)

British 5th Infantry Division

US 85th Infantry Division

Panzer Lehr Division

US 101st Airborne Division

British 1st Infantry Division

US XII Corps

US 3rd Infantry Division

British 46th Infantry Division

US 34th Infantry Division

US 45th Infantry Division

British 7th Armored Division

US 4th Armored Division

US XX Corps

British 56th Infantry Division

 

TLDR: Germany >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> USA >>>> British

Edited by uMad_ComRad
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What are people's thoughts on the fighting power of Japanese infantry. Did they ever get to use assault rifles like Germany and Brittan did? EG STG44 and Bren?

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Assault rifles? no.

 

They did have machine guns similar in performance (and aesthetic) to the Brent though with the type 96 and type 99.

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6 minutes ago, fufubear said:

Assault rifles? no.

 

They did have machine guns similar in performance (and aesthetic) to the Brent though with the type 96 and type 99.

Do you know if their SMG'S where good? I know that the ppsh is one of the best smgs

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Afaik they were just ok.  Nothing special  (unless you are counting the last ditch versions, in that case they were crap like all last ditch weapons).

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On 13/01/2017 at 6:17 PM, Fallenkezef said:

During the fighting Monte Cassino, the Fallschirmjager requested the use of British stretchers during a ceasfire, whic the Essex regiment kindly obliged. They then made sure to return the stretchers before the ceasefire ended.

It is very interesting to find this out.

My great uncle died while serving as a medic in Monte Cassino.. But that's all I know. 

I respect the German citizens that helped the US/UK troops once the knew the war was over, or tried to discourage the Volkssturm. These people saved lives on both sides.

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Posted (edited)

As I never saw war anywhere but on my TV, I prefer let a man who really fought answer about his foes : RAF French ace Pierre Clostermann. Interviewed for a documentary, he was asked about the reason why many German pilots had amazing killboards. I made a (poor, I'm affraid) translation.

 

Voice over : Pierre Clostermann, a French ace, knows the answer. He fought against these German pilots. 

 

PC : Some say : yes, but it was on the russian front, the Russians had outmatched planes. No. Because some had victories on the other front. Et here is the reason : It is... I know some of them... who survived. They began to fight in 36 in Spain, then did the campaign of Poland, the campaign of France, the battle of London. Because Luftwaffe was extremely cruel. These guys had to fight until they died. We, we had to do 80, 100 missions, 110 missions, and they let us take some rest. They never took rest.

 

So, when they survived, you had people with fabulous skills. Actually you had no choice. When you met one of these very skilled German pilots, you had no chance to escape. What you had to do was to guess there was one of them around you. You know, as you can smell a prowling wild beast, and so, My God, you lock yourself up at home... and when, in a fight, you guessed that one  of them was here , you could do anything but avoiding him like the plague.

 

So, two times, I could not avoid. I have been shot down twice. First on May the 12nd, 43, second on April the 21st, 45. And, on April the 21st, 45, I was at my best and at the highest level of irresponsability. Because there is a kind of irresponsability when you are tired. There is a doping, because war dope you, during these operations. So... My God... I was not very modest *smiling*. And I have been drawed back in 35 seconds to the absolute modesty, that is total fear, that is telling yourself "God damn it, that's it. It is over" by a german pilot. We were eight planes, he was alone, and he made the "1, 2, 3 !" demonstration. And it was over.

 

Interviewer : Who was he ?


PC : I never knew...I never knew, he could kill me, because when my engine stopped, when I saw a shell explode, sweep and explode before... juste above the crosses *he shows the kill marks on his Tempest*... That day, I didn't fly my plane. And each time I flew, for technical reasons, someone else's plane, I had probs. It is strange. So I saw this shell explode, I felt the shock when my engine stopped, and I said to myself that it was over, I was done. Too low to bail out. I made a turn, he came to me again, and I perfectly saw the pilot, because he was upside down above me, very slowly, and I saw him 10 meters above me, who was looking at me. And I saw that he desperately tried to slow down. Maybe he feared that, in a last reflex, I shot him, because his engine worked and so he was faster than me. An he swept around, I landed. It was near (?) lake, in swamps, and the plane was covered with mug, gear in, and I got out of this plane like a mad man. I unlocked my parachute, I swept on the wing, and I fell. And I saw him coming to me again, and I said to myself "that's it, he is going to shoot me". I said to myself it was unthinkable, he could not do this. Never could I do this. And he did not... 


Interviewer : You say he did not. An you did not.  Some others did ?

 

PC *long silence* You know...There are always people who... who feel the urge to make war more horrible than it already is.

 

Interviewer : It happened ?

 

PC : It happened. On all sides.

 

 

Several years before he died, Pierre Clostermann finally learned who was the pilot who shot him down : probably German ace Hans Dortenmann. He reacted with a large smile, and said "Oh, him ! He was a curse !" 

Edited by _Cyanure_
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