Fallenkezef

Respected Foes

143 posts in this topic

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I would strongly suggest to take any blog you read with a spoon of salt, since information they put up is not legit many times.

 

Edited by Ulatersk
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3 hours ago, Ulatersk said:

89FLsqg.png?1

48Plwt0.png?1

03Je3qu.png?1

 

 

 

I would strongly suggest to take any blog you read with a spoon of salt, since information they put up is not legit many times.

 

I strongly suggest that you actually read your Article.  The Tiger Gorman rammed was Tiger 122 not Tiger 112 that your account was a crew member of.  Also if you check the photo.. .there was no 'HEADGEROW'  for the Tiger to back up into and hit that Sherman. So please... Thank you for trying to despute several books and other Articles.  John Gorman wrote a book and became a respected Politician in Ireland.  

http://www.ww2guards.com/ww2guards/AWARDS_G_-_I/Pages/GORMAN_JOHN_REGINALD,_M.C.,_2ARMD.html#4

 

Edited by *ChameleonLord
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18 minutes ago, *ChameleonLord said:

I strongly suggest that you actually read your Article.  The Tiger Gorman rammed was Tiger 122 not Tiger 112 that your account was a crew member of.  Also if you check the photo.. .there was no 'HEADGEROW'  for the Tiger to back up into and hit that Sherman. So please... Thank you for trying to despute several books and other Articles.  John Gorman wrote a book and became a respected Politician in Ireland.  

Would you mind to link to these?

 

Also I have a hard time finding a website that lists the tanks with their numbers and their fates.

Edited by Stahlvormund101
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a) The Tiger 112 is a writing mistake within the book, the Tiger II with marking 112 was lost on the  20.08.44 in Orville on the retreat. 

b) How many Tiger II do you think got rammed in the Normandy?

c) Gordon talks about a Hedgerow and a Tiger II comming out of it 200! meters away so it doesnt have to appear in the picture. 

d) The german crew was not taken prisoner as Gordon claimed but made it back to own lines and fought on. 

e) One more pic to drive the point home.

screenshot2017o3l70bavyw.png

f) On the first of Ulatersk pic you can see that the Tiger II moved backwards over the field, combine this with the picture two and the dropping of the tracks behind the drive spocket and you see the Tiger II was going backwards.

g) This is all from Wolfgang Schneiders book Tigers in Normandy in which he followed every singel Tiger and its fate and there is NO repetition of a Tiger II getting rammed in the Battle of Normandy. 

h) It doesnt matter what Gordon did after the war and what he became he is wrong here as Schneider proofed, period. 

i) Also it doesnt matter in how many books it is written since most of them copy each other or have the same source. The myth of the huge Tank Battle at Prochorovka with 400 destroyed german tanks and burning T-34 ramming Tiger tanks was undisputed repeated for more than 40 years and is still circulated today despite being completely fabricated. 

15 minutes ago, Stahlvormund101 said:

Would you mind to link to these?

 

Also I have a hard time finding a website that lists the tanks with their numbers and their fates.

Buy Wolfgang Schneiders Tigers in Normandy there are several lists in the appendix reagarding individuel markings/numbers and the fate of every Tiger deployed in the Normandy. 

Edited by _Sev_
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On ‎14‎/‎01‎/‎2017 at 6:07 AM, fufubear said:

Every soldier is respected by me.  Any man that served his country during their time of need earns my respect.

Yes, I agree.

 

I respect all soldiers who fought in WW2, regardless of his side or his unit.

Their motivation may vary, some enlisted because they had no choice, some did because they believed in a cause.

Some did horrible things, some managed to respect an ethical code.

Some are now seen as heroes and praised in movies, others are despised.

But they were all men and women.

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Imagine what kind of life (especially politically) he would have had if it was clear he did not take out the Tiger II but it was an accidental friendly fire.

On the other hand, "producing" a hero sure must have been a boon for the British war effort.

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1 hour ago, _Sev_ said:

a) The Tiger 112 is a writing mistake within the book, the Tiger II with marking 112 was lost on the  20.08.44 in Orville on the retreat. 

b) How many Tiger II do you think got rammed in the Normandy?

c) Gordon talks about a Hedgerow and a Tiger II comming out of it 200! meters away so it doesnt have to appear in the picture. 

d) The german crew was not taken prisoner as Gordon claimed but made it back to own lines and fought on. 

e) One more pic to drive the point home.

screenshot2017o3l70bavyw.png

f) On the first of Ulatersk pic you can see that the Tiger II moved backwards over the field, combine this with the picture two and the dropping of the tracks behind the drive spocket and you see the Tiger II was going backwards.

g) This is all from Wolfgang Schneiders book Tigers in Normandy in which he followed every singel Tiger and its fate and there is NO repetition of a Tiger II getting rammed in the Battle of Normandy. 

h) It doesnt matter what Gordon did after the war and what he became he is wrong here as Schneider proofed, period. 

i) Also it doesnt matter in how many books it is written since most of them copy each other or have the same source. The myth of the huge Tank Battle at Prochorovka with 400 destroyed german tanks and burning T-34 ramming Tiger tanks was undisputed repeated for more than 40 years and is still circulated today despite being completely fabricated. 

Buy Wolfgang Schneiders Tigers in Normandy there are several lists in the appendix reagarding individuel markings/numbers and the fate of every Tiger deployed in the Normandy. 

Yes.. but in the battle account up top the Guy was a crew member of a Tiger not a konigstiger that is a very far distance 200 meters to back up and not see a Sherman.  It also specifically states in the battle account of that crew member of Tiger 112 that he reversed and hit him in the hedgerow... Of which again there is no hedgerow in the picture.  There were 3 Tiger 2's lost in combat in Normandy.  One flipped into a Bomb crater the other two were destroyed in combat of which this was one of them.  Also who is to say that the tracks by the Tiger 2 were there from long before they were rammed.  They were firing on Canadian and British tanks from that position long before Gorman's tank arrived. Would a tank not move back and forth in the open to make it more difficult for the enemy to target?  

Edited by *ChameleonLord
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9 minutes ago, *ChameleonLord said:

Yes.. but in the battle account up top the Guy was a crew member of a Tiger not a konigstiger that is a very far distance 200 meters to back up and not see a Sherman.  It also specifically states in the battle account of that crew member of Tiger 112 that he reversed and hit him in the hedgerow... Of which again there is no hedgerow in the picture.  There were 3 Tiger 2's lost in combat in Normandy.  One flipped into a Bomb crater the other two were destroyed in combat of which this was one of them.  

The terms Königstiger, King Tiger or Royal Tiger never officially were used by the German command and maybe not even by the soldiers. It was merely "Tiger II" so it easy to see how it could be abreviated to just Tiger.

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2 minutes ago, Stahlvormund101 said:

The terms Königstiger, King Tiger or Royal Tiger never officially were used by the German command and maybe not even by the soldiers. It was merely "Tiger II" so it easy to see how it could be abreviated to just Tiger.

1) I think Königstiger actually was an inofficial name... used by the Soldiers etc. but not in official documents

2) Well... actually it merely was "Tiger Ausf. B" so it gets even easier to shorten it to simply Tiger :D

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1 minute ago, Stahlvormund101 said:

The terms Königstiger, King Tiger or Royal Tiger never officially were used by the German command and maybe not even by the soldiers. It was merely "Tiger II" so it easy to see how it could be abreviated to just Tiger.

Maybe... but a typo in a official report from 112 to 122 is a little more rare and doubtful.  The Absence of a hedgerow and both tanks being out in the open is also questionable that this discussion is about the same incident. 

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4 minutes ago, *ChameleonLord said:

Maybe... but a typo in a official report from 112 to 122 is a little more rare and doubtful.  The Absence of a hedgerow and both tanks being out in the open is also questionable that this discussion is about the same incident. 

However, just from the report it is hard to determine how much time has passed between moving through the hedgerow and getting rammed by the Sherman and I can see a hedgerow in the background of each of these pictures, so I find it plausible to assume its about the same incident.

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16 minutes ago, Stahlvormund101 said:

However, just from the report it is hard to determine how much time has passed between moving through the hedgerow and getting rammed by the Sherman and I can see a hedgerow in the background of each of these pictures, so I find it plausible to assume its about the same incident.

It clearly states that he backed into the Sherman 'IN' the hedgerow... not after driving through the hedgerow travelling 200 meters in a open field.  It also states that the Gunner was firing on a Tommy on this 12 o'clock of which this turret was pointing at the 10 o'clock.  Gorman's story also states that when they came back the Germans were trying to free the two tanks from the collision and that the Tiger 2 was in working order.  That would explain the turret having been moved since the gunner (who lost his seat) had left the tank.   

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Tac. number is a book typo. Tiger B is the official german designation.

 

This is the only case of Tiger ramming, maybe in whole western front.

 

That Gormans account doesnt line up with the crew record that was supposed to be captured  from a tiger that was disabled in the exact place and in the same time as Gorman is claiming is really not my problem.

 

 

 

Edited by Ulatersk
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6 minutes ago, Ulatersk said:

Tac. number is a book typo. Tiger B is the official german designation.

 

This is the only case of Tiger ramming, maybe in whole western front.

 

That Gormans account doesnt line up with the crew record that was supposed to be captured  from a tiger that was disabled in the exact place and in the same time as Gorman is claiming is really not my problem.

 

 

 

reminds me of the good ol "Mah Super Pershing blew up a King Tiger!" stuff...

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21 minutes ago, RohmMohc said:

reminds me of the good ol "Mah Super Pershing blew up a King Tiger!" stuff...

 

but sboober bersheng keel frm 50 km awai

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32 minutes ago, Ulatersk said:

Tac. number is a book typo. Tiger B is the official german designation.

 

This is the only case of Tiger ramming, maybe in whole western front.

 

That Gormans account doesnt line up with the crew record that was supposed to be captured  from a tiger that was disabled in the exact place and in the same time as Gorman is claiming is really not my problem.

 

 

 

There were a lot of tanks and Tigers in that area.  So again I think it is a different account.  So your account which does not line up with the pics and your report is really not my problem.  

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4 minutes ago, *ChameleonLord said:

There were a lot of tanks and Tigers in that area.  So again I think it is a different account.  So your account which does not line up with the pics and your report is really not my problem.  

amusing... this really begins to remind me of the whole SP story... and the discussions where some people grasped straws to defend the claim that the SP knocked out a KT... while Wehrmacht reports have no King Tiger even near the city...

 

like "maybe the OKW didnt know there was a KT?" "Masybe the crew just wandered off with their tankw ithout telling anyone"

Edited by RohmMohc
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9 minutes ago, *ChameleonLord said:

There were a lot of tanks and Tigers in that area.  So again I think it is a different account.  So your account which does not line up with the pics and your report is really not my problem.  

But not too many of them had their main gunner reporting they got rammed by a Sherman.

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3 minutes ago, Stahlvormund101 said:

 

But not too many of them had their main gunner reporting they got rammed by a Sherman.

He is claiming that they rammed the sherman in a hedgerow that the commander did not see. 

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Kreigsmarine, specifically the U-boats. ( well any submariner in WW2 for that matter! ) but the daring that those early U-boat commanders had was amazing. 

 

For any one person I would have to say Saburo Sakai. An amazing man that swore when the war ended he would never kill a living thing for the rest of his life. Not even a mosquito.

 

 

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1 hour ago, *ChameleonLord said:

He is claiming that they rammed the sherman in a hedgerow that the commander did not see. 

 

There is not a single word even remotely alluding to them ramming each other inside a hedgerow.

 

Had you stopped to think for a second, you would realise that most commonly found hedges as our gunner puts it, were the hedges grown on earthen barriers between farm lands, which served as a kind of fence.

 

So no, unless you are suggesting that a tiger positioned itself parallel to a hedge, and then reversed into it and started demolishing it length-wise, only to be violently met by a sherman that chose to do the same kind of gardening, they did not ram each other inside a hedgerow. Its physically impossible anyway.

 

I dont know what do you think was the reason there is a sherman variant specifically created to deal with hedges and that the easiest way through them was with explosives.

 

1 hour ago, *ChameleonLord said:

There were a lot of tanks and Tigers in that area.  So again I think it is a different account.  So your account which does not line up with the pics and your report is really not my problem.  

 

There is no different account.

 

I dont know what you dont understand about that fact.

 

My account is the report. Tone down on that trolling, you are losing the narrative.

 

These are the only pics of Tiger being rammed by a sherman, ever. 

 

And Im amazed at the grasping that is happening here, namely your grasping on non-existant straws, trying to establish a frame of reference to time and space that were not given at all.

 

Tracks on that Tiger clerly suggest it was going in reverse. I dont know why would a repair team try to reverse it more into that Sherman, but thats what you are implying.

 

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24 minutes ago, Ulatersk said:

 

There is not a single word even remotely alluding to them ramming each other inside a hedgerow.

 

Had you stopped to think for a second, you would realise that most commonly found hedges as our gunner puts it, were the hedges grown on earthen barriers between farm lands, which served as a kind of fence.

 

So no, unless you are suggesting that a tiger positioned itself parallel to a hedge, and then reversed into it and started demolishing it length-wise, only to be violently met by a sherman that chose to do the same kind of gardening, they did not ram each other inside a hedgerow. Its physically impossible anyway.

 

I dont know what do you think was the reason there is a sherman variant specifically created to deal with hedges and that the easiest way through them was with explosives.

 

 

There is no different account.

 

I dont know what you dont understand about that fact.

 

My account is the report. Tone down on that trolling, you are losing the narrative.

 

These are the only pics of Tiger being rammed by a sherman, ever. 

 

And Im amazed at the grasping that is happening here, namely your grasping on non-existant straws, trying to establish a frame of reference to time and space that were not given at all.

 

Tracks on that Tiger clerly suggest it was going in reverse. I dont know why would a repair team try to reverse it more into that Sherman, but thats what you are implying.

 

I think you need to re-read your battle account before you make such statements... I can only assume English is not your first language.  Your battle account does not specify whether it was a Tiger 1 or a Tiger 2.  The pics were taken by Canadian forces so the Brits recovered the Tiger 2.  Your account clearly specifies that they reversed though a hegderow and rammed the Sherman that was sitting behind it.  WW2 does not have every encounter photographed. In your one photo where the front of the Tiger is shown.. there is no tracks in front of it.  Can you point out the tracks?   Lastly why despute it now?  To ruin this post which is a celebration of warriors of the past.  

Edited by *ChameleonLord
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And this was supposed to be a good thread...

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