ground vehicles Dowa Armoured Car

[Orlunu 6,863]

I didn't want to make this suggestion before Japan's starting lineup was released, although it was perfectly obvious it wouldn't be in.  Now that the initial tree's out, I'm happy to ask you to support it.

 

Dōwa Jidōsha Kōgyō Kabushiki Kaisha was a government controlled automotive manufacturer based in Hsinking, Manchukuo.  It specialised in armoured cars.  Now, most of them were built to foreign designs or even from prefab parts, but it became more and more independent in terms of production as time went on.  Eventually, with Manchukuo being involved in such a long war and large quantities of old kit approaching obsolescence, they embarked on a refurbishment programme.  The project involved taking old armoured cars, rarely armed with anything more powerful than a light machine gun, and upgrading them with a standard modernisation kit.  This kit consisted of a Type 14 37mm cannon to be casemate mounted next to the driver, and an anti-aircraft machinegun turret, and was applied to many different armoured cars.

 

Column of Dowa-modified armoured cars.

 

The particular version I'm proposing is the upgraded Sumida P (or Type 91 without railway gear) chassis.  This chassis gives respectable mobility, with a top speed of 40kph, and somewhat effective armour; the armour plates were of 16mm and 11mm thickness, other than the underside and top faces at 6mm thick.  It also gives the potential for a fearsome secondary armament and backup crew reserve, as its sides feature six firing slits through which tank machine guns could be fired with wide arcs.

 

Modified Sumida in foreground with crew displaying Manchukuo's flag.  Note that the Austin, second in, was incapable of receiving the new turret and featured only the frontal gun.

 

Spoiler

Sketch of modified Austin, to give an idea.

 

Sumida armoured car with some firing slits filled.

 

Further Sumida detail.

 

For the weapons:

The main anti-armour gun added to the vehicles was a Type 14 37mm cannon frontally mounted in the position next to the driver.  This cannon was a Manchukuo-produced variant of the Japanese Sogekiho infantry gun, differing only in ways that don't matter in game.  The Sogekiho fired a 0.71kg APHE shell at a muzzle velocity of 530m/s, giving a short range penetration a little north of 30mm, and good energy retention over time.  It had significant punch for a gun of its era, and had seen successful service as a tank cannon mounted on Japan's re-fitted French tanks and on the very early I-Go series which were sent into battle in Shanghai before their intended armament was available.

  The secondary armament consisted of machine guns, of various models over time.  In the case of the Sumida chassis, there could be one mounted in the AA turret and six mounted in the firing slits, three on each side.  As previously stated, these were occasionally switched to different models, but I am recommending the starting, baseline setup.  This consisted of a Type 3 HMG in the turret, and Type 91 LMGs in the firing slits.  Despite the different-sounding designations, these both used the same ammo (6.5x50mm Arisaka) and even threw it at the same velocity (2,400 ft/sec), which is nice.  They ain't much scary individually, but they do have the advantage of coming in a set of seven, which means they should murder exposed crew fairly effectively and will be moderately effective at keeping enemy planes off your back.

 

Further image showing AA turret, frontal gun partially obscured.

 

Nicest shot I've seen of a Type 14 cannon.

 

Type 3 HMG ready to scare planes or something.

 

Type 91 LMG also shoots bullets.

 

 

Uhm, so.  Summary.  It's an armoured car that I'm recommending for bottom level BR, maybe a premium reserve.

 

Mobility:

Pretty good on hard surfaces, fairly average off.

 

Armament:

Main gun is fairly powerful, but is limited to a frontal arc and has relatively low reload rates.

Secondary machine guns are everywhere, and have decent ballistics, but are low-calibre.  Allow very high elevation.

 

Protection:

Armour is small-arms proof, and has some extreme angles, but isn't reliable against anti-tank weapons.

Module layout is such that it should be able to eat a lot of fire without dying or losing main gun function.

Large crew pool (probably nine) means plenty of meat for the grinder lots of on-hand replacements for vital roles a nice atmosphere with lots of friends.

 

 

Anyway, I want her in because I think it'd be cool, Manchukuo really needs some love in game, it'd be pretty much the only way for the Japanese tree to get an armoured car (since Japan only really put MGs on 'em), it'd add a bit of diversity to the low levels, this is probably the closest you get to a Chinese-designed tank in the period, Japan won't have a massive number of tanks, so more is nice, whatever.  I don't know, I want it.

 

Please gib  ༼ つ ◕_◕༽つ

Edited December 11, 2016 by Orlunu
I'm an idiot

[blakeob 8,084]

Open for discussion. 

[Yikus_Maximus 963]

Yes. +1

[TwinHornet 10]

Well the Japanese Ground force tech tree needs something to fill in the gaps so I suppose why not. However I can't shake off the feeling that this might be a bit of a struggle bus when facing other tanks at its tier. Still I appreciate the amount of effort you put into this proposal Must have taken quite a bit amount of time to dig up this info so just for that I give you +1

[Mercedes4321 4,695]

I like it, and it is one of the only armoured cars that the Japanese could receive. I think it would make for a decent low tier 1 vehicle. I did choose other on the second question though, as there were multiple different chassis converted so those are also possible with the Sumida.

Edited December 11, 2016 by Mercedes4321

[Results45 2,200]

Though I'd might add my own suggestion to this one (giving the devs some ideas in case mine is permanently locked):

 

Quote

Type 92 Chiyoda (Japanese Army):

 

Short History:

In 1931, almost at the same time adopting a not very successful Type 92 armored car "Osaka", it was developed more advanced modification of Type 92 "Chiyoda" ( "Chiyoda"), built by the forces of the arsenal in Osaka and destined for offshore units. This time instead of biaxial (4x2) decided to use the three-axis (6x4) chassis, leaving the former armament and booking. Due to the greatly elongated chassis base had to modify the hull of the machine, also markedly increased in length.

 

 

The layout of the main units and placing the crew has not changed, but the arms a little effort. The front inclined front plate and the left side of the tower was installed on one 6.5-mm machine gun Type 11 (according to other data sets out five 7.7 mm machine guns one of which could be used as anti-aircraft). Another of the same gun was mounted in the front hull on the left of the driver. A full crew of cars amounted to 6 people. In contrast to the army version of "Chiyoda" could reach a speed of 80 km/h.

 

All were released about 200 armored vehicles of this type, it is actively used in Manchuria in 1932-1938 gg. Several cars left directly in Japan, and in 1942 individual specimens were sent to Malaya. Most of the time, "Chiyoda" perform security and tracking features, almost did not participate in the fighting.

 

Article Source: http://www.aviarmor.net/tww2/armored_cars/japan/ac_2592_chiyoda.htm

Primary Source:  Fedoseev SL Armored machinery Japan 1939 - 1945 (Bronekollektsiya №03-1995) 

 

Specifications:

 

 

Type 92 Marines (Japanese Navy):

 

Short History:

Existed in Japan since the early 1900s. the separation of forces and means in terms of the creation of armored vehicles for the Army alone and separately for the fleet, do not always bring positive results. One attempt to release a special "marine" armored neadolgo was made prior to the invasion of the Japanese army in Manchuria.

 

A particular challenge was not put before the Japanese engineers. It was necessary only to provide the Navy armored vehicle capable of supporting amphibious assault and help to consolidate the bridgehead. The most immediate opponent was fragmented into separate China, where anti-armor did not really know anything. This meant that in this case, it was quite possible to do simple technological methods.

 

Built in 1932 armored car he received the official designation "2592 type landing parties" (Model 92 Naval Armored Car) , or simply type 92. Structurally and outwardly he strongly resembled an army armored vehicle Type 92 "Chiyoda" that at times makes it difficult to identify them. The machine frame is assembled from sheets of rolled steel armor thickness Vertical frontal bronelisty were 11 mm thick and installed at a slight tilt. The upper nasal, side and rear bronelisty had a thickness of 8 mm. Engine compartment, which is located inside the 6-cylinder petrol engine (35 hp) was equipped with armored frontal shutters controlled from the driver's cab.

 

 

The cab and the separation of management were performed combined. The driver's seat is on the left and the right of the installed 7.71-mm machine gun type 91. Mounting Ball installation gun in a sloping sheet allowed to fire tower roofs and attics of houses in the course of the battle in the village. Another similar type of gun can be installed in one of the rectangular embrasures in the side of the hull just behind the doors. Single tower with a wall thickness of 8 mm was placed on the roof of the fighting compartment and had a front sloped armor plates. In addition the top hatch on the turret was mounted rack for the firing of anti-aircraft machine gun. Thus, the complete armament consisted of four 7.71 mm machine guns. Served armored car crew of four people: the driver, commander, gunner and two [passengers or additional gunners].

 

Chassis is derived from the three-axle truck with a 6x4. Drive on two rear axles are carried out through the propeller shaft. The wheels were Shed, with self-sealing rubber from tires. To improve patency by terrain, and avoid hanging behind the front wheels, between the first and second bridge installed freely rotating metal drum, similar to how it was done in the French armored vehicles such as Citroen-Kegresse.

 

Combat use of armored amphibious naval units limited only to China. Where these machines arrived in 1932 (maybe a little later). Most of the time they carried patrols and participated in small clashes with Chinese troops, but it was full as the Type 92 never used. Apparently, the latest episode of their combat use came in the 1937-1938 biennium., And then type 92 was sent to training units.

 

Article Source: http://www.aviarmor.net/tww2/armored_cars/japan/ac_2592_marines.htm

Primary Source:  Fedoseev SL Armored machinery Japan 1939 - 1945 (Bronekollektsiya №03-1995) 

 

Specifications:

 

 

Type 93 Kokusan (Japanese Navy):

.

Short History:

A naval armored car for China

The Type 2593 “Hokoku”, Type 93 “Kokusan”, was a navy armored car used in China. Little is known about this model, its production records are unknown, but it was built by the Ishikawajima Heavy industries at the Sumida Motor Car Factory in 1932. We do have a few photos and some specifications can be deduced from the chassis. It was apparently built on a 6×6 Ford truck chassis and well armed.

Design

The Type 93 was basically an armored body wrapped around a Ford truck chassis. A framework held the bolted steel plates. This armored car had limited off-road capabilities on softer grounds, as it was tailored for street fighting. The armor was flat for the sides, bottom, rear and front, and slightly sloped on the roof and engine hood. As usual, the turret was placed at the center-rear, cylindrical and partly sloped, with a 11 mm (0.43 in) frontal thickness. On the driver’s right there was a machine-gun mount, two other ball mounts were placed on the sides, while the turret mounted another machine gun, probably a Vickers 0.30 cal (7.7 mm).

A pintle mount for an extra AA Type 91 machine gun was attached to the turret rear. Apparently, it had a pair of unditching metal wheels just after the front axle, which could be lowered to ease ground pressure and for enhanced crossings capabilities. Access to the vehicle was performed from the rear and sides. Hinged sight slit panels were mounted on the sides and front of the driver compartment. The crew counted the driver, commander and two gunners.

Active service

Records of this armored car in China are scarce. This model was was presumably mdified to integrate lessons learnt in the 1932 Shanghai incident, and tailored for street combat in occupied villages and towns. The 5 vehicles built (according to http://www.weaponsofwwii.com/) were all used by the Shanghai Special Naval Landing Force from 1933 on for security duties inside the european and the japanese settlements in Shanghai.

Article Source: http://www.tanks-encyclopedia.com/ww2/japan/Type_93_Kokusan.php

Secondary Sources:

• http://www.militaryfactory.com/armor/detail.asp?armor_id=748
• https://ikazuchisen.wordpress.com/naval-type-93-armored-car/
• https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Type_93_Armoured_Car

 

Additional Photos:

  Hide contents

 

Specifications:

https://forum.warthunder.com/index.php?/topic/338994-japanese-armored-cars-type-92-chiyoda-type-93-hokoku-kokusan/

 

Edited December 11, 2016 by Results45

[HMSD33Dauntless 1,257]

Can the Type 93 Kokusan use the Dowa kit? I'd like to see it in game with a mainly cosmetic feature that changes the wheels and lets it switch between rail and road mode instantly.

Also +1 to the Type 91. As for that feature I just mentioned, it could be used on the Type 91 as well. It might give a slight speed boost while driving on rails but it'd be mostly cosmetic and for fun. Back to the topic I don't really know where the Type 91 would go, however, as I don't know of other Japanese armored cars that could be placed after it.

[Z3r0_ 4,114]

I'll support this.  The armament arrangement might be a little tricky to use (with the only weapon effective against enemy armor being in a fixed mounting in the hull on a wheeled platform, which will make aiming the 37 mm a bit annoying), but I suppose with a low BR it could be useful under the right circumstances, particularly if one makes use of its speed to do a cap rush or some early-game scouting work before bringing out the big guns or a plane.

Edited December 11, 2016 by Z3r0_

[Querulous1 3,276]

Indeed, could be fun little vehicle

[DavidXD 1,355]

I support !

+1

[Orlunu 6,863]

15 hours ago, Orlunu said:

The Sogekiho ... had seen successful service as a tank cannon mounted on Japan's re-fitted French tanks and on the very early I-Go series which were sent into battle in Shanghai before their intended armament was available.

 

Just for interest's sake:

 

 

May be worth popping out another suggestion for these, but I like to space 'em out a little.

 

The Type 89 in Shanghai looks like a monster, no?

[[email protected] 718]

Overall I don't see a necessity for armored cars, but I do like the design of the Sumida. Might be fun rushing to the cap zones and scouting or advancing through narrow urban streets. +1

[McPuff 2,207]

+1

I'd really like to see this in-game, but hopefully after some earlier designs have been added as this wouldn't quite be able to compete with current vehicles

[Results45 2,200]

That Type 14 37mm gun though....... Japanese armored cars could sit as reserve SPAAGs TDs or light tanks. 

Edited December 20, 2016 by Results45

[blakeob 8,084]

Moved to the Japanese tank CBT as it is more relevant, and was requested by OP.

Edited December 20, 2016 by blakeob

[Admiral_Aruon 2,254]

+1 for the Sumida P.

 

+-0 for the type 92/93

 

 

it seems every nation has a quirky wheeled or half-tracked. (SU-57, M3 halftrack, panzerwerfer, T17 / AC mk II) so having the Sumida with that 37mm cannon at 1.0 or 1.3 would be quite appropriate.

 

as for the 92 and 93... ehhhh... find evidence of a version of anything like that packing at least a pair of .50 cals or 13.2mm MGs. an armored car that packs only sub-.50 cal armament is a little too weak even for 1.0 BR. unless the intent is to try and outdo the 4M GAZ as a joke vehicle in which case i'm all for it.

[jenzi80 2]

Wasn't there talk of armoured cars for all nations? Or is this idea shelved?

[OddballE8 3,878]

8 hours ago, jenzi80 said:

Wasn't there talk of armoured cars for all nations? Or is this idea shelved?

 

most likely shelved for a future patch so they can have an armored car theme for a content patch.

Makes more sense than drip-feeding AC's into the game.

[Sumilidon 7]

maby as a tier 1.0 or reserve else is will be useless

[Reaps 1,724]

I wrote it somewhere else, but if team sizes are increased, map sizes are increased (or at least restored), and ACs get an 'advance' spawn, then ACs would make a very sensible addition to the game

[Results45 2,200]

On 12/11/2016 at 8:03 AM, Orlunu said:

 

Just for interest's sake:

 

 

May be worth popping out another suggestion for these, but I like to space 'em out a little.

 

The Type 89 in Shanghai looks like a monster, no?

 

Looks kinda like the 20 some NC27 tanks Japan bought from France:

 

On 1/9/2017 at 10:29 PM, Reaps said:

I wrote it somewhere else, but if team sizes are increased, map sizes are increased (or at least restored), and ACs get an 'advance' spawn, then ACs would make a very sensible addition to the game

 

Well in tanks RBEC mode on 10 x 10km maps they could serve as recon/"arty spotters" (as suggested by David Listed "Listy"):

 

 

 

Quote

The Artillery Issue

 

Today I want to do something a bit different and talk about game play and ideas. Next week we'll be back to normal with a history article.

There has been, and always will be an argument about artillery in games like World of Tanks. On one hand you have the ability to utterly one shot people and ruin their game. Part of that issue is the feeling that there was nothing you could do. That issue has been about for many years, many old FPS’s where you had one camping sniper felt the same. Equally it's a kind of jump scare, which makes you feel bad. On top of all that you have the habit of humans to highlight when it happened. As an example I bet most of you can remember the last time your tank just exploded from an arty hit. How many of you remember the shots that missed from artillery? Did you even notice them?
On the other side of the coin you have the poor arty player who is sprinkling his rounds gleefully about the countryside and watching his shells which he sends off and promptly lands in the wrong post code. This is hardly fun for him either.

Perfectly aimed shot

So I've been playing computer games for a lot of years and working with table top war games companies for just as long. So I've had a bit of experience in systems, especially on the wargame system of mechanics that aren't working right within the system. I had a bit of a brain storm and came up with the following idea.

Hip shot!

The idea draws upon artillery from War Thunder, and some ideas taken from the Steel Panthers series. In those games artillery isn't complained about anywhere to the same degree it is in WOT or Armoured Warfare (yes, I spell it correctly…). But is a useful tool. It also draws upon ideas from World of Warships carrier gameplay, introducing a strategy game for those who want it.
Throughout this proposal I'll be using examples to illustrate the point. 
As with any plan it never survives first contact with programmers or the enemy. Game engines might just say "nope" can't be done like that. So don't think of this as an exact detailed plan for fixing, more of a general "hey wouldn't it be cool if" idea. Equally any graphics are not intended to be 100% final but are entirely nebulous to show how the idea might look.

I realise this is a significant shift in direction for the arty class. For that reason alone it might be unfavourable, but I feel that at the least this suggestion should be made to get the idea out there, simply because almost none of the game developers seem to have thought of it in this way.

The idea is basically to make artillery an off map asset. Much like throughout the Second World War, artillery was rarely on the front line, unless something went very very very badly wrong. Instead the player drives an observer vehicle, which are always about.

Observer vehicles simply provide a spotter at the forward edge of battle to guide artillery in successfully, leaving combat arm commanders free to fight the battle. They carry the communication, spotting equipment and maps needed for this task as well as the trained specialists in relative safety. To make room for those items the vehicle itself if it is based off a tank often has its guns removed. However to most people they're often invisible. Take the following photograph. It's a famous picture from the battle of Villers Bocage. How many of you have seen it before? How many knew, before now, that this is an observer tank? You can see the wooden dummy gun barrel on the floor in front of it.

You'd drive one of these observer vehicles instead of the artillery gun.

From this vehicle the off map artillery can be directed. However due to certain limitations you will need to drive the vehicle about the battlefield, to the best position to use the artillery. This means there's no camping at the back. Equally you will have to manage the guns within the supporting battery to ensure they don't all get knocked out.
Instead of "gun" modules you'd have upgrades to the number and type of artillery tubes in your supporting battery.

The use of observer vehicles has one major advantage, in many cases they're based off an existing tank within game meaning you're essentially re-using assets. It would save modelling the SPG models, just needing to tweak a few models already in game.
It also allows you to use other off map assets such as air support, which would function similarly to artillery, but have a more exciting visual effect as the attack plane swoops over the battlefield (hey we have to do something with all those WOWP models!). Other options could be multiple rocket artillery salvos. Imagine seeing the streaks of flame and smoke from a salvo launching on the maps sky box and know that someone on your team is about to get some good news?

Chew on this O-I!

To illustrate the ideas I have I've made a crude graphic of what I would think the artillery interface would look like. The elements of it will be explained below.

Yeah, I never passed art class...

The basic core idea is: Artillery acts like that of War Thunder. If you're connected to the War Thunder community, you'll note one massive difference: No one in War Thunder rages about artillery.
 A brief description of their system is: You press a button and a map comes up on screen with a cursor. When you click on the map, an artillery barrage will land on that area in the game world. First a couple of ranging shots will land, giving people a warning artillery is on the way. If that’s too subtle giant red words saying "Artillery Fire!" also flash. This gives the player time to react, if they sit and take it then they only have themselves to blame for any damage. After firing the main part of the barrage the artillery support will enter a cooldown before it can be used again.

To prevent bombardment of spawn areas and to prevent camping the range at which the the artillery can be called in is limited. This is represented by the area of the green circle. This forces the observer vehicle to have to move and keep up with the battle line.

The above is the basic core idea. The parts below are for making life a bit more interesting and introducing a smaller strategy game for the artillery players so they have something to keep them playing the game instead of knocking off to make a sandwich while all their guns are on cooldown.
The basic idea is based around counter battery fire missions. Do you allocate all your guns to on map fire, and risk having them knocked out thus leaving the enemy artillery a free reign? Or do you try to counter and block enemy artillery to defend your own forces? Some of each and succeed at neither? Is the enemy waiting to counter battery you?

On the graphic above you'll notice a panel marked "battery orders" on the top right. Below the title is a drop down menu, one for each gun. Here you can order your guns and their crew to do one thing. Some suggestions would be:

Direct Support
The gun crew concentrates on loading and firing at targets on map. This gives the gun its maximum rate of fire, but will of course leave it vulnerable to counter battery fire.

Shoot and Scoot
After firing a bombardment the gun crew moves their gun a short distance to prevent being knocked out by counter battery fire. This means a longer cooldown time between shots on map, but gives a higher resistance to counter battery fire.

Counter battery fire
The gun crew will not respond to fire missions aimed at the map, instead they'll wait until enemy artillery fires then try to knock them out. As this succeeds then the enemy guns start taking damage (as shown in the bottom left panel, for example Gun #2 has taken two hits).

Should have left it on shoot and scoot orders!

When the player clicks on the map to call in the fire mission all the guns with "Direct Support" or "Shoot and Scoot" orders, that are off cooldown will fire a barrage at the target area. This is an area of effect around the centre point the artillery player clicked on the map. 
Like in War Thunder a warning flashes up on anyone caught in the area of effect about incoming artillery, along with a couple of ranging shots. Then a short while later the main barrage will arrive.
The number of guns available for this will determine how deadly the barrage is. After this there is a cooldown period before the guns are available to be used again, these would be affected by the orders.
If a player is clever he can stagger his guns reloading times, so he can get a higher rate of fire up, but each barrage will cause less damage.

In short you get an aspect that actually potentially lowers the amount of modelling work and makes the community happier. On the downside of course it does mean re-working the coding behind artillery, and so is likely more coding work up front.



There are plenty of ideas to go with this, different ammo types and an absolute plethora of weapon types. Each nation had its own school of thought when it comes to artillery, and you can build those int othe system its that flexible. This idea could easily be applied to modern games as well.

So is it an idea, or should I stick to doing history and leave the games design to the professionals?

.

http://overlord-wot.blogspot.com/2016/01/the-artillery-issue.htm

Edited January 24, 2017 by Results45

[Mercedes4321 4,695]

11 hours ago, Results45 said:

 

Looks kinda like the 20 some NC27 tanks Japan bought from France:

 

 

 

That's exactly what they are.

[Orlunu 6,863]

On 1/24/2017 at 8:05 AM, Results45 said:

 

Looks kinda like the 20 some NC27 tanks Japan bought from France:

 

Them's the ones.

After some heavy Japanese modification, that is.

[Smin1080p 59,192]

Suggestion Passed to the Developers for review