sabaton_

Operation "Unthinkable", yes it was unthinkable

177 posts in this topic

On 11/29/2016 at 9:59 PM, Sodanjumala said:

With all the talk about nuclear bombs being used, would had Americans used them against targets in countries that they are supposed trying to liberate?

Bombing civilians is a legit anglo/american strategy in all conflicts since and including WW2 so yes it was inevitable. This is a war strategy of terror: bomb civilians and force the surrender.

Edited by Max__Damage
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Also you guys are forgeting something, all the B-29 were in the pacific theater in May 1945, it would take a while to put them into service in Europe against the soviets.

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3 minutes ago, sabaton_ said:

Also you guys are forgeting something, all the B-29 were in the pacific theater in May 1945, it would take a while to put them into service in Europe against the soviets.

Yes that is true. It wouldn't be until early to mid 1946 that b29s would start bombing the soviets.  Before that the missions would be carried out by b17s that didn't have the range and couldn't flay as high and fast as the b29.  I don't see a bombing campaign happening until b29s are present tbh.

 

Instead I see a Soviet offensive to capture nearby airfields to prevent the b29s from operating.  That could be interesting because the Soviet planes could very well compete with the allied planes at low altitude.

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IMO probably not longer than a month or 6 weeks to transfer B29's to Europe and make them operational.

 

Operation Matterhorn was the B29 operations from China - it was planned and approved in October 1943, ground forces started building airbases in India and China in December 1943, and 1 wing of B29's was available (but not operational) in April 1944.

 

For Europe you already have airbases, teh wings are already experienced and trained, you have no supply issues, you literally can fly the aircraft from the Pacific to USA to Europe over a week or so (to get to china they flew the Atlantic from Florida to Brazil then Nth Africa to get to India!) - moving ground crews is likely to be the main problem!!  But by 1945 you have a large fleet of 4 engined transports for that function too.

 

It would have taken some planning - but it was well within the capabilities of the forces at the time IMO.

 

 

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I'd like to point out something of interest to me.

 

I think had Britain and the US miraculously convinced their publics that Stalin was as bad and evil as Hitler and had successfully swayed them into declaring war, they have a few other issues to deal with. Firstly, tank power. In 1945, the Soviets far outnumbered the British and American tanks in production at the time, plus were better armoured and armed, and generally more up to the task of fighting a land war in 1945. Britain and the USA were just getting modern designs to the field (Comet, Pershing and Centurion about to be deployed). The Soviets simply would have won in open fields. Of course we don't know what developments could have come in had this occurred. We don't know if the Black Prince, T29 or Tortoise tanks would have seen production as well, and we don't know what the Soviets would have responded with.

 

On top of this, we have an issue with generals. I'd say the US is a bit safer here, as they had very good army group commanders, who were incredibly good at their job. Britain however lacks. Montgomery was adequate for the task and Alexander was a competent general himself, however the true best British generals are relatively unknown, such as Slim, thus putting the British at a disadvantage due to Montgomery's cautious nature. A victory against the USSR would need to be a swift one, but the British would likely be too cautious to pull such a task off. They would need to recognise the more successful generals but I do not see this happening.

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On 15/1/2017 at 7:16 PM, DoLhades said:

I'd like to point out something of interest to me.

 

I think had Britain and the US miraculously convinced their publics that Stalin was as bad and evil as Hitler and had successfully swayed them into declaring war, they have a few other issues to deal with. Firstly, tank power. In 1945, the Soviets far outnumbered the British and American tanks in production at the time, plus were better armoured and armed, and generally more up to the task of fighting a land war in 1945. Britain and the USA were just getting modern designs to the field (Comet, Pershing and Centurion about to be deployed). The Soviets simply would have won in open fields. Of course we don't know what developments could have come in had this occurred. We don't know if the Black Prince, T29 or Tortoise tanks would have seen production as well, and we don't know what the Soviets would have responded with.

 

On top of this, we have an issue with generals. I'd say the US is a bit safer here, as they had very good army group commanders, who were incredibly good at their job. Britain however lacks. Montgomery was adequate for the task and Alexander was a competent general himself, however the true best British generals are relatively unknown, such as Slim, thus putting the British at a disadvantage due to Montgomery's cautious nature. A victory against the USSR would need to be a swift one, but the British would likely be too cautious to pull such a task off. They would need to recognise the more successful generals but I do not see this happening.

 

The soviet answer would be T-44, IS-3,IS-4 and probably some of those strange "object" models

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Nonetheless the only major advantage Britain and the US would have is Visibility, they'd engage first but penetrate? That's debatable.

 

But the Germans and French would have some interestingly fast paced vehicles if this occurred in the 50s.

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On 2/2/2017 at 0:39 AM, DoLhades said:

Nonetheless the only major advantage Britain and the US would have is Visibility, they'd engage first but penetrate? That's debatable.

 

But the Germans and French would have some interestingly fast paced vehicles if this occurred in the 50s.

Considering a war as soon as the 1945 starts.. well backbone of URSS forces was the T34/85. sherman 76 could easily pierce a T34. Both 17 pdr and 77 HV would have done the job from 2 km. The pershing with 90 mm could engage any soviet AFV. I think that US would immidiatly field more m26 armed with the long 90 mm and then deploy their wunderwaffe as soon as it s ready ( t29 etc etc) 

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5 hours ago, bellezza03 said:

Considering a war as soon as the 1945 starts.. well backbone of URSS forces was the T34/85. sherman 76 could easily pierce a T34. Both 17 pdr and 77 HV would have done the job from 2 km. The pershing with 90 mm could engage any soviet AFV. I think that US would immidiatly field more m26 armed with the long 90 mm and then deploy their wunderwaffe as soon as it s ready ( t29 etc etc) 

This with the wehrmacht supporting them, with whatever equipment they still had left.

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I wonder how much a possible german contribution to the Opeation Unthinkable would do and how the Allies could support them.

Like, would it be possible to supply german mass-production of Panthers by Allies and how would that affect their chances on the ground (as afaik the Panther literally could hold its own against anything soviet until IS-3, T-44, T-54, IS-4).

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Maybe allowing the production of the jadgtiger to have already there a tested TD against the new generation of soviet armor

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Posted (edited)

On ‎10‎/‎02‎/‎2017 at 1:30 PM, bellezza03 said:

Maybe allowing the production of the jadgtiger to have already there a tested TD against the new generation of soviet armor

Panthers and Kingtigers also as well as supplying German industry with ressources and proper Tools to finally be able to equip their Panther with the planetary epicyclic gear as planned at the beginning as well as allowing german engineers to improve existing designs and develop their new designs like the E-serie. It's not lying much that saying Allies did not possess then any tank bar the Centurion and the M26 to face off new soviet designs which would have appeared especially the IS3, T29 was not yet ready and shipping them in sufficient number would have been difficult, also the vehicle would probably have suffered a lot of teething issues like every new vehicles.. In this context, the only battleproven vehicles able to go head to head with the Soviets machines would have been German and particularly the Tiger II which in WWII suffered only from it's underpowered engine as well as lack of fuel supply, everything else was pretty solid. Maybach HL 234 with it's 900 HP and allied fuel would have both solved the two biggest problem of the King Tiger

 

For what is about the air industry well, urging a US/UK/GER commity to introduce and produce the Me P1011 as soon as possible after the design being revised armament Wise, Mk 108 no longer being needed and replaced firest by MG 151 and then MG 213. Produce a lot of them to equip not only the new Luftwaffe but also UK and US squadrons in order to posess a plane far superior to every existing Soviet aircrafts.

 

Of course all of this could not have happened in June 1945 but would have required 1 year to put all this on rails...

 

If Ally had really wanted to declare war to USSR they'd have soon realized that they need a strong German war industry... However I think nobody wanted to wage war anymore the US/UK/USSR or even GER soldiers

Edited by Tantor57
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I will note aircraft wise the British had a supersonic plane in development. End of the war actually cost Britain the title of being first. The prototype was 70% ready in 1946 when funding was cut. A scale model had been used to simulate how fast the structure could take and reached somewhere around mach 1.4. This fighter project was resurrected and became the English Electric Lightning, which had it's first drawings as early as 1943.

 

If the allies knew a war was coming... no doubt this would have been finished off.

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On 3/5/2017 at 10:20 AM, Tantor57 said:

Panthers and Kingtigers also as well as supplying German industry with ressources and proper Tools to finally be able to equip their Panther with the planetary epicyclic gear as planned at the beginning as well as allowing german engineers to improve existing designs and develop their new designs like the E-serie. It's not lying much that saying Allies did not possess then any tank bar the Centurion and the M26 to face off new soviet designs which would have appeared especially the IS3, T29 was not yet ready and shipping them in sufficient number would have been difficult, also the vehicle would probably have suffered a lot of teething issues like every new vehicles.. In this context, the only battleproven vehicles able to go head to head with the Soviets machines would have been German and particularly the Tiger II which in WWII suffered only from it's underpowered engine as well as lack of fuel supply, everything else was pretty solid. Maybach HL 234 with it's 900 HP and allied fuel would have both solved the two biggest problem of the King Tiger

 

For what is about the air industry well, urging a US/UK/GER commity to introduce and produce the Me P1011 as soon as possible after the design being revised armament Wise, Mk 108 no longer being needed and replaced firest by MG 151 and then MG 213. Produce a lot of them to equip not only the new Luftwaffe but also UK and US squadrons in order to posess a plane far superior to every existing Soviet aircrafts.

 

Of course all of this could not have happened in June 1945 but would have required 1 year to put all this on rails...

 

If Ally had really wanted to declare war to USSR they'd have soon realized that they need a strong German war industry... However I think nobody wanted to wage war anymore the US/UK/USSR or even GER soldiers

 

It would be ever more likely that the germans would also dump resources into completing their Maus, Waffentrager and E-100 programs before using allied resources to up gun or modernize them against the soviet threat, which may result in concepts such as a Long Tom Waffentrager type weapons system, or marrying the Maus to the gun of the T95 GMC, with likely improvements to the AA armament.

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53 minutes ago, Kazumi_ said:

It would be ever more likely that the germans would also dump resources into completing their Maus, Waffentrager and E-100 programs before using allied resources to up gun or modernize them against the soviet threat, which may result in concepts such as a Long Tom Waffentrager type weapons system, or marrying the Maus to the gun of the T95 GMC, with likely improvements to the AA armament.

Maus project had been cancelled as an equipment project for the Heer, The whole project only had the authorization to be finished within the limits of the vehicles that could be made with the avalaible ressources, it would not have gone any further than that.

 

If a war had to be waged against USSR within the next few months after 8 may 1945 let's say October 1945, Germany would have been the only country with battle proven designs able to go toe to toe with tanks that would have started to appear around that time in significant number like T44 possible T54 the next year and IS3. Joined efforts of German/UK and US engineers to finish and polish planned german design especially the Maybach HL 234 which would have been vital for tanks like King Tiger and E50/E75 to work reliably along with allied ressources and toolings in order to make all of this possible would have been necessary. As far as upgunning goes, KwK 43 was highly sufficient as a standardized weaponry for their tanks for some years still.

 

For what is about air Me P1011, Meteor, Me 262's and P80 were far ahead of what Russia was capable of at that time. Aliied ressources would have allowed Me 262 to finally be equipped with engines made of proper material and even more powerful ones may they be allied or germans this matters few. needless to say, ger/UK/US air forces would have wiped the skies off any russian aircrafts.

 

Setting this a whole plan and tajing into account that the Red Army in 1945 was simply soared out, if a war had been going between USSR and allies (now including germany) this could have well avoided nearly 50 years of dictature in eastern europ countries

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Don't forget that the german engineers were working on increasing range and payload of their V-weapon rockets. Within a few years and Allied ressources and development, nuke warheads on V-rockets with the range to hit deep into soviet territory, the nuke warhead somewhat offsetting the tactical lack of precision. Strategically the range would probably remain an issue.

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12 hours ago, Stahlvormund101 said:

Don't forget that the german engineers were working on increasing range and payload of their V-weapon rockets. Within a few years and Allied ressources and development, nuke warheads on V-rockets with the range to hit deep into soviet territory, the nuke warhead somewhat offsetting the tactical lack of precision. Strategically the range would probably remain an issue.

Well, building a bigger V2 carrying a payload equivalent to that of Little Boy or a bit more like Fat Man would have been solved very quickly i beleive. With the joint efforts of Von Braun already existing team plus the most eminent allied scientists on the subject back in the day. I think the first medium range (2000-3000 km) nuclear ballistic missiles could have been ready as soon as 1947-1948. Accuracy however would have remained an issue for quite some time still, since such weapons need satelite guidance to be as accurate as possible.

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On 12/3/2017 at 1:06 PM, Stahlvormund101 said:

Don't forget that the german engineers were working on increasing range and payload of their V-weapon rockets. Within a few years and Allied ressources and development, nuke warheads on V-rockets with the range to hit deep into soviet territory, the nuke warhead somewhat offsetting the tactical lack of precision. Strategically the range would probably remain an issue.

 

On 13/3/2017 at 2:02 AM, Tantor57 said:

Well, building a bigger V2 carrying a payload equivalent to that of Little Boy or a bit more like Fat Man would have been solved very quickly i beleive. With the joint efforts of Von Braun already existing team plus the most eminent allied scientists on the subject back in the day. I think the first medium range (2000-3000 km) nuclear ballistic missiles could have been ready as soon as 1947-1948. Accuracy however would have remained an issue for quite some time still, since such weapons need satelite guidance to be as accurate as possible.

Remember that V-2 were made in Peenemünde, a zone that was captured by the soviet army

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On 3/5/2017 at 9:20 AM, Tantor57 said:

Panthers and Kingtigers also as well as supplying German industry with ressources and proper Tools to finally be able to equip their Panther with the planetary epicyclic gear as planned at the beginning as well as allowing german engineers to improve existing designs and develop their new designs like the E-serie. It's not lying much that saying Allies did not possess then any tank bar the Centurion and the M26 to face off new soviet designs which would have appeared especially the IS3, T29 was not yet ready and shipping them in sufficient number would have been difficult, also the vehicle would probably have suffered a lot of teething issues like every new vehicles.. In this context, the only battleproven vehicles able to go head to head with the Soviets machines would have been German and particularly the Tiger II which in WWII suffered only from it's underpowered engine as well as lack of fuel supply, everything else was pretty solid. Maybach HL 234 with it's 900 HP and allied fuel would have both solved the two biggest problem of the King Tiger

 

For what is about the air industry well, urging a US/UK/GER commity to introduce and produce the Me P1011 as soon as possible after the design being revised armament Wise, Mk 108 no longer being needed and replaced firest by MG 151 and then MG 213. Produce a lot of them to equip not only the new Luftwaffe but also UK and US squadrons in order to posess a plane far superior to every existing Soviet aircrafts.

 

Of course all of this could not have happened in June 1945 but would have required 1 year to put all this on rails...

 

If Ally had really wanted to declare war to USSR they'd have soon realized that they need a strong German war industry... However I think nobody wanted to wage war anymore the US/UK/USSR or even GER soldiers

 

If you want a decent idea of what the war might have been like, I suggest reading Colin Gee's "Red Gambit" series. Soviets would hit hard and have an initial advantage, but would exhaust their supply lines (already overstretched) fairly quickly.

I disagree about the Tiger II. By 1945, the Soviets already had the IS-3 in production, which would have been immune to anything in the allied inventory short of HESH rounds. Germans would have likely expanded on the E-series or upgunned the Tiger II to compensate. Gloster Meteor, P-80 would have become prominent as would have an improved Me-262. Allies/NATO would likely have seized control of the air quickly (though found fierce competition against the Yak 3, Yak 9 and late Lavochkin series. Things would be a lot more contentious on the ground, particularly given Soviet superiority in total number of forces as well as quality of armor. British Centurion with the 84mm gun, improved M26 would have become increasingly common. Would likely have seen deployment of T29 or T34 to counter soviet IS-3, more probably a revised T34 deployed officially as the M34 120mm Gun Tank. 

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Something to consider...

 

At the beginning of 1945 the RAF had placed orders for ~1,200 F20 series Spitfires, along with 150 Spitefuls. However, these orders were substantially reduced then canceled for two main reasons. There was a lack of worthwhile aerial opposition in Europe, and the Meteor and Vampire jets had become viable alternatives...The Vampire entered production in mid-1944 though it did not have a high priority at the time...If the war continued in Europe then these aircraft could have been pressed into service and posed a significant threat to the Soviet air-force.

 

Oh, and without any fighters to worry about the RAF's Lancasters and Lincolns would have free reign to sprinkle Tallboys and Grandslams over the Soviet tank columns.

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On 19/03/2017 at 4:59 PM, sabaton_ said:

 

Remember that V-2 were made in Peenemünde, a zone that was captured by the soviet army

They still had the thechnology and the scientists on their side, Another assembly launching site could have been found pretty quickly.

 

On 19/03/2017 at 6:42 PM, Nomad_Gaming said:

 

If you want a decent idea of what the war might have been like, I suggest reading Colin Gee's "Red Gambit" series. Soviets would hit hard and have an initial advantage, but would exhaust their supply lines (already overstretched) fairly quickly.

I disagree about the Tiger II. By 1945, the Soviets already had the IS-3 in production, which would have been immune to anything in the allied inventory short of HESH rounds. Germans would have likely expanded on the E-series or upgunned the Tiger II to compensate. Gloster Meteor, P-80 would have become prominent as would have an improved Me-262. Allies/NATO would likely have seized control of the air quickly (though found fierce competition against the Yak 3, Yak 9 and late Lavochkin series. Things would be a lot more contentious on the ground, particularly given Soviet superiority in total number of forces as well as quality of armor. British Centurion with the 84mm gun, improved M26 would have become increasingly common. Would likely have seen deployment of T29 or T34 to counter soviet IS-3, more probably a revised T34 deployed officially as the M34 120mm Gun Tank. 

By 1945 yes IS3 had the IS3 in production but the thing was only good at parading, The KwK 43 would still be able to crack open the welded pike nose from prettu hure range and the IS3 couldn't have engaged the Tiger II (H) as far as the latter could engage it, inital problems with welds would have caused the loss of much more IS3 than Tiger II's, not mentionning the fact that the Tiger II could have easily received some US style sharp nose APCBC solid shot, HVAP or APDS which would have trashed the IS3 completely from a relatively safe range. Bulk of the soviet forces would have still consisted of a large majority of T34-85. T54 would have started to become common by the beginning of 1947 far after Soviets having actually exhausted it's supply lines and lost the control of the air, also Yak 3, Yak 9 or even La 9 wouldnt have been the shade of a match even at low alt for any fighter jets being able to fly literally 200 km/h faster, with far better high speed manoeuvering qualities. Deployment of the T34/T29 would have been the nail sealing the soviet casket.

 

Soviet army suffered immensely much at the east despite having huge numerical number versus only a one legged army, I don't imagine a single second the soviets breaching through allied front for a single second, the terrain is not at their advantage anymore, they might have the number, but they dont have the tactics nor the logistics which, let's not forget it, were able to sustain a full war versus germany only thanks to Allied supply. which would have stopped in the case of a war.

 

USSR after world war two only managed to become the power it becamse thanks to the ruling and ressources of all the Easter Europe country it occupied, USSR trying to advance further to the West was one of Stalin's biggest wishes but Joukov was highly conscious that they did not have the numbers, and the means to do it. USSR trying to break through europe as soon as 1946 would have been like a bee cloud attacking a guy with a flamethrower.

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3 minutes ago, Tantor57 said:

Deployment of the T34/T29 would have been the nail sealing the soviet casket.

More reasonable would be sending materials and parts from US, and keeping KTs in production.

7 minutes ago, Tantor57 said:

Soviet army suffered immensely much at the east despite having huge numerical number versus only a one legged army, I don't imagine a single second the soviets breaching through allied front for a single second, the terrain is not at their advantage anymore, they might have the number, but they dont have the tactics nor the logistics which, let's not forget it, were able to sustain a full war versus germany only thanks to Allied supply. which would have stopped in the case of a war.

Don't forget that in Poland and Lithuania were over 80 000 anti-communist partisans at the end of the war. They didn't have chance later, when they were chased often by regular army units, but would be able to make serious troubles when messing with logistics.

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1 hour ago, Tantor57 said:

They still had the thechnology and the scientists on their side, Another assembly launching site could have been found pretty quickly.

There were quite a lot of forward V2 launching sites/bunkers on the west front (with parts or even complete V2's).

Also KZ Mittelbau-Dora, which was a major site of production for V2s and V1s was captured by the US army.

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more important above all... US had Von Braun and all his team. A upscaled V2 was already in Von Braun mind to put in orbit something. A 2 stage V2. With the proper resources i can see bigger rockets incoming really fast.

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I doubt the west would have used jets.  Germany only used jets put of desperation while Britain and America largely held their jets back.  Jets would only be a factor if the soviets posed a real threat.

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