Markus752

U-boats / Submarines (Idea Collection / Brainstorming))

29 posts in this topic

Hey guys,

 

I know this has been asked, denied and asked again quite a few times as subs wouldn't really fit the larger ship gameplay.

 

But what we got right now is actually a really nice meta for the submarines.

 

I was thinking about making subs the "Attacker" or "Bomber" type of the ships.

 

They are slow moving, can dive but be killed by depth charges and are very bricky to control. Subs do hit hard though. And they got a big cannon on the deck, too.

 

The Deck gun could be a concern but given the waves and how hard it will be to hit the fast and agile MBT's AND that you have to be surfaced and man it first makes it quite balanced in my opinion.

In addition it could work like the gunner mechanic on tanks. When your gunner gets killed you have to wait until he gets replaced. The Subs can't man the gun when submerged and they can't dive with a manned gun. Diving and surfacing took quite a long time for all you don't know. It could take up to 20-30 seconds depending on the crew and current position of the sub on the water. So there will not be a "quick dive" to evade incoming MBT's as those are WAY too fast to evade them. 

 

Moreover, we could force diving subs to have "periscope sight" -only. Basically a tanks binocular view as long as you are submerged.

 

This would make it incredibly hard to make good use of the deck gun without risking to get sunk by the fast MBT's. I think the deck gun will be more of a "last resort" choice of weapon.

 

 

Subs would be VERY fragile for any hits by the 40mm and 37mm AP shells and will die rather easily.

 

 

This all should fit together nicely with the addition of Battleships or Carriers as AI Objectives so the Subs can take those out. As I said earlier I would therefore describe them as the "Bomber" of the naval tree.

 

What are you guys thinking? With Depth charges already in we could potentially see subs in the future. There is a lot of programming involbed to get a sub to do what it should but I think its could be quite fun in the end. 

 

I will add pictures and more Details to this suggestion later and I will try to get a basic balance idea on the whole ships vs U-boats idea. (Mainly talking about the problem that subs could hide submerged for quite a long time underwater and if they model it realistically they basically could stay underwater all game long.

 

(I need to find a fix for this: Maybe artificially cutting the time down or make them somehow easier to spot by putting a Sonar as map in the corner for example. This could only show subermerged enemies all around the map so there is no hiding but have a ping time of around 15 seconds. So you can't really blind fire at them.)

 

I wanna make this Thread as a collection of Ideas that I will file as a suggestion once the closed Beta started as right now no suggestion are taken that include the naval gameplay.

 

 

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4 minutes ago, Wetwings said:

I don't think there will be submarines.

 

I don't think that reason of working depth charges at PT-boats is destroying another PT-boats.

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9 minutes ago, Wetwings said:

I don't think there will be submarines.

 

I don't know. They said no at the beginning. But now the META of the game shifted from large battleships to smaller PT boats. Subs would fit that META much better.

 

4 minutes ago, PL_Andrev said:

 

I don't think that reason of working depth charges at PT-boats is destroying another PT-boats.

 

I think they will be used as those first. But they may just have added them to be able to include submarines later IF they choose to implement them at all.

 

Therefore I made this Thread to collect a lot of ideas from you guys to make a full suggestion with a complete idea on how to balance and tier those subs against the PT boats.

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1 minute ago, JuleZz said:

They said it also in the twitch live stream of the Gamescom: The depth charges are for boats that are following you. Subs won't be in the game they said it multiple times if you watched the stream.

 

1. Read it but still sounds funny. anyway DCs are working.

2. Subs won't be in the game at now or close future

3. Devs said at GF release "no Maus for sure" - ta-daam!

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We will see after the CB. 

As for the subs I heard both answers. The last time they talked about subs, and that was on Sunday, they said they wont implement them because they are hard to play and once they find you, your are dead because you can't escape. That's just what I heard and not my opinion why they won't be implemented!

The thing with the maus: I know they said that at the beginning, but that was because they didn't want any prototypes in the game. You can see know this changed a little bit. Submarines would be a new class at all! Maus is a tank like all other tanks.

 

We can discuss this over and over again. However, it isn't sure if we get large ships or anything else if we don't have ideas how to make it fun to play.I don't know if you saw the first gameplay of the new boats, but for me it was more like the rapid fire game mode than a good tactical gameplay.

 

I am not against subs. I just don't think they would implement them. If they find a way it would be great

 

Edited by JuleZz
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1 hour ago, JuleZz said:

We will see after the CB. 

As for the subs I heard both answers. The last time they talked about subs, and that was on Sunday, they said they wont implement them because they are hard to play and once they find you, your are dead because you can't escape. That's just what I heard and not my opinion why they won't be implemented!

The thing with the maus: I know they said that at the beginning, but that was because they didn't want any prototypes in the game. You can see know this changed a little bit. Submarines would be a new class at all! Maus is a tank like all other tanks.

 

We can discuss this over and over again. However, it isn't sure if we get large ships or anything else if we don't have ideas how to make it fun to play.I don't know if you saw the first gameplay of the new boats, but for me it was more like the rapid fire game mode than a good tactical gameplay.

 

I am not against subs. I just don't think they would implement them. If they find a way it would be great

 

 

Hard to play? Yes. Slow? Yes.

 

Therefore they could be the "bombers" of the naval tree. With the capability to destroy large vessels on their own if left alone.

 

I am still thinking about how it could be implemented and I could really use some of your ideas to collect as many possible option sto implement them as possible to make Subs possible to be added.

 

 

1 hour ago, Oxygen_Thief said:

Adding a unique tank is very very different than adding a whole new class of vehicle, it wont happen

 

When the Developers think the current META would NOT fit submarines then of course they will not add submarines. If we can find a way to balance them and make them fun to use I am sure they will be a great addition to the game and the Devs may reconsider adding subs.

 

I am still locking for IDEAS from you guys and not a discussion of "They said "No"". I know that myself^^

 

So if any of you got an idea of how we could balance and add subs. Especially how we can add subs without them being too boring/hard to play or keep hiding all match long underwater without making them arcade style U-boats that can only submerge a few minutes at a time.

 

My Idea was to give the PT-Boats Radar. So there is a mini-map showing ONLY subermerged submarines over a very large radius. (Getting more precise the closer you get).

 

The Radar would refresh every 10-15 seconds so the U-Boats have some time to react in their path and it would only show them when fully submerged.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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1 hour ago, Markus752 said:

I am still thinking about how it could be implemented and I could really use some of your ideas to collect as many possible option sto implement them as possible to make Subs possible to be added.

 

Looks easy: DD vs SUB battle.

Convoy is going from A to B point, DDs protect them, SUB (somewhere between) waited for best point to attack.

Points for teams based on save/kill ratio of convoy merchant ships + personal achievements (damage / sunk opposite team members).

 

Artillery - already done

AA - already done

Swimming / floating model - already done

Torpedo - already done

Depth Charges - already done

Underwater mechanics - like planes at air (another density, resistance and upthrust

Hydro passive / active - to be developed

Periscope view and calculation - to be developed 

 

Not so much I suppose...

 

 

 

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24 minutes ago, PL_Andrev said:

 

Looks easy: DD vs SUB battle.

Convoy is going from A to B point, DDs protect them, SUB (somewhere between) waited for best point to attack.

Points for teams based on save/kill ratio of convoy merchant ships + personal achievements (damage / sunk opposite team members).

 

Artillery - already done

AA - already done

Swimming / floating model - already done

Torpedo - already done

Depth Charges - already done

Underwater mechanics - like planes at air (another density, resistance and upthrust

Hydro passive / active - to be developed

Periscope view and calculation - to be developed 

 

Not so much I suppose...

 

 

 

 

Although that is a nice idea for an event. We need to balance around random battles.

 

Anyone can pick any Ship/U-boat they want. And if Ships vs Subs isn't properly balanced to a point where both can be fun we won't see them ingame.

 

They COULD try out U-boat gameplay by adding a low poly model of a sub like a Typ VII in a DEV server event and giving it basic functions (Diving with a placeholder function that just makes it impossible to hit you and shisft your boat underwater [only hitable by depth-charges].) 

 

 

 

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2 hours ago, Iron_physik said:

I would say that subs can be ingame as an AI target first.

it would be a secondary objective that you have to destroy/ defend.

 

this objective apears after X amount of time on a random point at the map.

 

 

The mechanic could work like the current "Spotter" system where enemy bombers or attackers like a Pe-2 are appearing on the map. I am going to add that to the List of Ideas. Thanks =)

 

Although I would prefer them to be playable this would make it possible to test the DM and handling before the playable ones are added.

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As I remember the idea of subs as AI dummy target were published 1 year ago...

But maybe it changes now - with working DCs...

 

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i think if they want small ships as a end goal even tho im apposed to not having battleships they are going to have to put subs in. i really dont see the problem with subs as they would bring a nice dynamic to the battle as opposed to going around in circles blasting boats.

 

of course subs have their ups and downs-pun intended/not intended.

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I visited my local U boat yesterday (U-2540) ;), and it gave me some ideas of how tehy would work.

 

Spawn:

 

You would spawn quite close in the map, about mozdok distances away.

 

You would start with no charge in your batteries, so you would have to charge them on your way to combat.

 

Combat:

 

Once you had enough charge in your batteries, you could change your "preferred bouancy".

100 % preferred bouancy would shift all the water out the tanks, making the sub float with the highest profile out the water. About 40 % would shift enough water into the tanks that the bridge would be the only part visable. 0 would be the sub just complely submerged. -50 might be about 10 m depth etc. Sonar would just be a be like a circular mini map without terrain and friendly markers. 

 

Hud would look like this :

 

Depth 5m

Preferred bouancy : - 30 %

True bouancy : - 29 %

Tank capacity : 43%*

Torp : 6

CNN : 800

SPD : 24 kph

 

 

This would be a sub that is 5 m below the water, with 6 torps left and 800 rounds for the AAA guns left. 

Your perescope would be like tank sniper cam, exept you could bind some keys to extend/retract it. Another key could bind you to a view for the aaa guns, and the final key would be binded to let you see out the torp sights?

 

*Made that number up.

 

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6 hours ago, chickenispro said:

I visited my local U boat yesterday (U-2540) ;), and it gave me some ideas of how tehy would work.

 

Spawn:

 

You would spawn quite close in the map, about mozdok distances away.

 

You would start with no charge in your batteries, so you would have to charge them on your way to combat.

 

Combat:

 

Once you had enough charge in your batteries, you could change your "preferred bouancy".

100 % preferred bouancy would shift all the water out the tanks, making the sub float with the highest profile out the water. About 40 % would shift enough water into the tanks that the bridge would be the only part visable. 0 would be the sub just complely submerged. -50 might be about 10 m depth etc. Sonar would just be a be like a circular mini map without terrain and friendly markers. 

 

Hud would look like this :

 

Depth 5m

Preferred bouancy : - 30 %

True bouancy : - 29 %

Tank capacity : 43%*

Torp : 6

CNN : 800

SPD : 24 kph

 

 

This would be a sub that is 5 m below the water, with 6 torps left and 800 rounds for the AAA guns left. 

Your perescope would be like tank sniper cam, exept you could bind some keys to extend/retract it. Another key could bind you to a view for the aaa guns, and the final key would be binded to let you see out the torp sights?

 

*Made that number up.

 

 

So the bouancy would be set like mxture? That would be nice idea so you have to set the depth yourself and be careful not to hit the ground

Gonna add that to my list, I will add your name for the credit =)

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What would happen if it got into a sub 1v1 duel?

If they both managed to spot each other and submerge at the right time, woudnt the combat end up being very stalemate? I know about the action of 9 feb 1945, but the u boat didnt fight back then.

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16 hours ago, chickenispro said:

What would happen if it got into a sub 1v1 duel?

If they both managed to spot each other and submerge at the right time, woudnt the combat end up being very stalemate? I know about the action of 9 feb 1945, but the u boat didnt fight back then.

what happens when two bombers fight each other because its the same scenario just played out under water. i dont think there will much sub vs sub battles but if it does its will most likely be deck gun vs deck gun for the win.

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6 hours ago, sgtlongbow said:

what happens when two bombers fight each other because its the same scenario just played out under water. i dont think there will much sub vs sub battles but if it does its will most likely be deck gun vs deck gun for the win.

If they keep their charge up and know where the enemy sub is in time to submerge, it could get interesting. I know it would be very rare though.

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1 hour ago, chickenispro said:

If they keep their charge up and know where the enemy sub is in time to submerge, it could get interesting. I know it would be very rare though.

 

One of my ideas to keep that from happening was letting the tickets drain if the sub is the last one alive and submerged. That way we would not have endless games where one sub is hiding.

 

Another idea was the radar for ships so they can spot submerged subs. No idea how a sub vs sub would end in this case.

 

 

But even if one sub dives the other one can simply stay surfaced and wait for the other sub to surface again to shoot it.

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4 hours ago, Markus752 said:

 

One of my ideas to keep that from happening was letting the tickets drain if the sub is the last one alive and submerged. That way we would not have endless games where one sub is hiding.

 

Another idea was the radar for ships so they can spot submerged subs. No idea how a sub vs sub would end in this case.

 

 

But even if one sub dives the other one can simply stay surfaced and wait for the other sub to surface again to shoot it.

There probably wouldn't be much in the way of Sub vs Sub, as I believe only once in history has a Submarine ever sunk another Submarine, so while it's more likely to happen in WT than in RL, it probably still won't happen much unless both teams have tons of submarines.

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Have any of you ever played Slient Hunter? I mean all i needed to do to evade a group of AI controlled destroyers was to dive to 150-200meters zig zag with silent and reverse speed ascend and descend every now and then just to keep them guessing and repeat this process for an hour or two!! 

So do we really want submarines ? where you maybe get one good torpedo run at an lets say AI controlled battleship and then have a bunch of boats dropping massive Depth charges on you? 

I love U-Boote but i do not think they are necessary in warthunder,as they very very delicate machines and not designed for front line duty,they are behind the scenes players,sneak up and kill not brawlers.

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14 hours ago, Just2bad said:

Have any of you ever played Slient Hunter? I mean all i needed to do to evade a group of AI controlled destroyers was to dive to 150-200meters zig zag with silent and reverse speed ascend and descend every now and then just to keep them guessing and repeat this process for an hour or two!! 

So do we really want submarines ?

 

If you dive 150-200 meters deep you have no chance to attack enemy convoy / hunt free frags.

Mission for destroyers completed successfully then.

 

But if somebody wants to pay submarines... why not?

This was main reason or my suggestion why submarines should be premium units only... 

 

 

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6 hours ago, PL_Andrev said:

 

If you dive 150-200 meters deep you have no chance to attack enemy convoy / hunt free frags.

Mission for destroyers completed successfully then.

 

But if somebody wants to pay submarines... why not?

This was main reason or my suggestion why submarines should be premium units only... 

 

 

 

Well yes this is after I attacked the convoy and escorts are on to me,of course at periscope depth only, it would be suicidal to surface which escorts around.

My point was that it takes a long time to throw off destroyers/anti submarine vessels and boats are even quicker to react if they spot you so chances are you won't even get a chance to engage the convoy.

Then there is the fact that other then the Type XXI which came at 44/45 most submarines only had 7-11 knots available underwater which came at high battery cost,so to get to your objective quickly or within range you would have to surface with a bunch of trigger happy boats around.

Then let's say gaijin brings in destroyers,allied destroyers had access to hedgehog forward firing mortar which if you look it up was one of the most successful weapon systems agains subs,which will make sub players cry out in agony.

So in the end at least to me there are more cons to pros in terms of should submarines be introduced 

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