RohmMohc

The Sinking of the German Battleship Bismarck

146 posts in this topic

29 minutes ago, arczer25 said:

scuttling means flooding citadel (machinery is big part of ship, and citadel is designed to keep ship on water even if bow and stern are flooded.) it is one of fastest way to sink ship, without ability to reliably piece Bismarck citadel RN will need much more time to sink it.

She was flooding uncontrollably, listing heavily, and sitting low in the water.

She would have capsized fairly soon regardless, and then sink.

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3 minutes ago, Eden_Earhart said:

She was flooding uncontrollably, listing heavily, and sitting low in the water.

She would have capsized fairly soon regardless, and then sink.

didn't know that Bismarck was "She", anyway watertight compartments are designed to get flooded (especially after that many torpedoes hits) with possibly would stop from further flooding while main source of ship buoyancy was still unharmed.

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1 minute ago, arczer25 said:

didn't know that Bismarck was "She",

well normaly ships are refered to as she (KuK navy afaik was an exception, there the Warships iirc were refered to as male)... Bismarck is a bit special since Lütjens reffered to the Bismarck (and wanted her to be refered to as) "He" beccause it was a powerful battleship

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3 minutes ago, arczer25 said:

didn't know that Bismarck was "She", anyway watertight compartments are designed to get flooded (especially after that many torpedoes hits) with possibly would stop from further flooding while main source of ship buoyancy was still unharmed.

The flooding was out of control and there probably wasn't even enough crew left for any sort of damage control

There is absolutely no way they could have kept the wreck floating.

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11 minutes ago, Eden_Earhart said:

The flooding was out of control and there probably wasn't even enough crew left for any sort of damage control

There is absolutely no way they could have kept the wreck floating.

watertight compartments have limited capacity, by the end they could be already fully flooded (due to length of battle and damage) with also means that after few min it could stop getting more water, but we will don't know and wreck don't tell anything as it got to the bottom in other way.

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2 hours ago, RohmMohc said:

well normaly ships are refered to as she (KuK navy afaik was an exception, there the Warships iirc were refered to as male)... Bismarck is a bit special since Lütjens reffered to the Bismarck (and wanted her to be refered to as) "He" beccause it was a powerful battleship

Though in german language you would always say "Die Bismarck" and "die" is a female article.

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3 minutes ago, Stahlvormund101 said:

Though in german language you would always say "Die Bismarck" and "die" is a female article.

im not German, still Bismarck is male name.

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3 minutes ago, arczer25 said:

im not German, still Bismarck is male name.

I am German, and yes, Bismarck is a male name. It stems from Reichskanzler Bismarck, one of the most prominent figures of the Unification of the german countries to the 2nd Reich.

However, the Bismarck as ship is still referred to in German language as "die Bismarck".

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48 minutes ago, Stahlvormund101 said:

Though in german language you would always say "Die Bismarck" and "die" is a female article.

i do know that... i just mentioned as a side note that Lütjens wanted the Bismarck to be reffered to with a male pronoune... didnt carry far as we see

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2 hours ago, arczer25 said:

im not German, still Bismarck is male name.

 

As a French, I also don't understand why ships are caled "she". :p

I only know that in Japan, ships were called after a female name for their commander to marry with them.

Edited by Fighter117
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Stahlvormund101 stop being such a total Kriegsmarine fanboy, admit it the Bismarck had easily adequate enough AAA fire power to kill at least one swordfish, it's true. Believe it or not no Stalin wood or Stalinuim was used in their construction so they were absolutely destructible. So your precious Bismarck for all its one shot-ing abilities and suicide before death to the enemy stuff simply couldn't hit a slow swordfish flying in a straight line towards it. Get over it. Don't try blaming this one on the equipment a simple machine gun would have done the job if it weren't for Bismarcks cross eyed AAA gunners.

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12 minutes ago, Skiny105 said:

Stahlvormund101 stop being such a total Kriegsmarine fanboy, admit it the Bismarck had easily adequate enough AAA fire power to kill at least one swordfish, it's true. Believe it or not no Stalin wood or Stalinuim was used in their construction so they were absolutely destructible. So your precious Bismarck for all its one shot-ing abilities and suicide before death to the enemy stuff simply couldn't hit a slow swordfish flying in a straight line towards it. Get over it. Don't try blaming this one on the equipment a simple machine gun would have done the job if it weren't for Bismarcks cross eyed AAA gunners.

Spoiler

5b7e0fdd39178dc8d4148618607fc96fb8908a1e

Please refrain from further ad hominem, thanks.

Anyways, it wasnt me who actually stated the factual reasons why until the crew scuttled the ship, the Bismarck could still hold itself in the water.

I merely held the position in the meantime ;)

On the other hand, why is it allowed on this forum to be a blindfold RN and RAF fanboy?

 

Edited by Stahlvormund101
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:facepalm:

 

lets face facts.......the Bismarck sunk......regardless of what her crew did it when down. Why the German navy thought sending two ships into the Atlantic was a good idea I will never know

Edited by Ghost_Rider12
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The discussion was rather civilized until you two try to bring this down.

I will have to ask a mod to remove the filth if you dont know how to behave.

 

Because, if you actually read through the thread, you see that me personally already took a position thats an actually very agreeable compromise:

The RN brought the Bismarck down to a state where it basically was forced to sink itself.

Edited by Stahlvormund101
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4 minutes ago, Ghost_Rider12 said:
  Hide contents

5WwnRNE.png

 

:dntknw:

nice to see another unqualified version of that crap... especially H-44 since that thing wasnt ment to be built anyway... it was a simple design study "how big would it have to be to archieve XY" it wasnt about how much sense it would make to built it... because it never was planned to be built...

 

and iwth the "clean Kriegsmarine" and the warcrimes here... i'd go with Laconia first instead of Dresden... B-25s bombing the surivovrs of hte HMS Laconia nad get medals for that

Edited by RohmMohc
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11 minutes ago, RohmMohc said:

nice to see another unqualified version of that crap... especially H-44 since that thing wasnt ment to be built anyway... it was a simple design study "how big would it have to be to archieve XY" it wasnt about how much sense it would make to built it... because it never was planned to be built...

 

and iwth the Kriegsmarine... i'd go with Laconia first instead of Dresden... B-25s bombing the surivovrs of hte HMS Laconia nad get medals for that

 

Quote

lets face facts.......the Bismarck sunk......regardless of what her crew did it went down. Why the German navy thought sending two ships into the Atlantic was a good idea I will never know

 

^^

Edited by Ghost_Rider12
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6 minutes ago, Ghost_Rider12 said:

 

:facepalm:

 

lets face facts.......the Bismarck sunk......regardless of what her crew did it when down. Why the German navy thought sending two ships into the Atlantic was a good idea I will never know

Probably a better idea to wait for them to get sunk in their home bases or rot in the Eastern Sea, no?

They caused quite a stir in the RN and British Government.

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4 minutes ago, Stahlvormund101 said:

Probably a better idea to wait for them to get sunk in their home bases or rot in the Eastern Sea, no?

They caused quite a stir in the RN and British Government.

dont forget the Tirpitz... all the Queen of the North did was sit in a Fjord... yet this was enough to worry the western allies and send loads of ressources (most likely so many that they actually made building the ship overall useful just for the amount of resources they send) to sink it... and did that because the Kriegsmarine didnt notify the Luftwaffe that the Tirpitz changed position... now imagine that with 2 of those ships...

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10 minutes ago, Stahlvormund101 said:

Probably a better idea to wait for them to get sunk in their home bases or rot in the Eastern Sea, no?

They caused quite a stir in the RN and British Government.

 

and did not really achieve anything really bar sinking HMS Hood (which lets be honest was out of date and in need of some modernization) and giving the RN some target practice. Bismarck did not change the course of the war it did not effect the convoys. In short the Bismarck would have been better used like the Tirpitz was i.e. a threat to the arctic convoys which meant the RN had to provided a large number of ships as escorts in case the Tirpitz came out. just think of how meany ships would have been tied up if the Bismarck had been there as well.  

 

RohmMohc: we must have posted at the same time ah well.

Edited by Ghost_Rider12
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Scharnhorst and Gneisenau had made a very successful anti-shipping sortys into the Atalntic - which is what Bismark was hoping to repeat.

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8 hours ago, Stahlvormund101 said:

I am German, and yes, Bismarck is a male name. It stems from Reichskanzler Bismarck, one of the most prominent figures of the Unification of the german countries to the 2nd Reich.

However, the Bismarck as ship is still referred to in German language as "die Bismarck".

 

Actually Bismarck is a noble surname and therefore gender neutral (his full name is Otto von Bismarck).

Someone who nowadays refers to Bismacks wife, Johanna, for example, might as well correctly say: "die Bismarck"

 

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7 hours ago, Ghost_Rider12 said:

 

:facepalm:

 

lets face facts.......the Bismarck sunk......regardless of what her crew did it when down. Why the German navy thought sending two ships into the Atlantic was a good idea I will never know

As Josephs_Piano said there where succesfull raids before and the German Navy was so small it was the only thing they could hope to be successfull in, an open Battle like Jutland was out of question.

I can recommend Niklas Zetterlings book about the Bismarck in which the author takes time to talk about these raids, the raid strategies and their problems (the Germans found out its rather difficult to find ships in the Atlantic XD and the ships neede long overhauls after such raids).

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40 minutes ago, _Sev_ said:

As Josephs_Piano said there where succesfull raids before and the German Navy was so small it was the only thing they could hope to be successfull in, an open Battle like Jutland was out of question.

I can recommend Niklas Zetterlings book about the Bismarck in which the author takes time to talk about these raids, the raid strategies and their problems (the Germans found out its rather difficult to find ships in the Atlantic XD and the ships neede long overhauls after such raids).

 

While I generally agree, it is strange that she didn't get at least 1-2 destroyers as escort ...

after all she was quite vulnerable to enemy destroyer attacks and, as was proven, also against enemy air attacks.

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7 hours ago, Peisistratos said:

 

Actually Bismarck is a noble surname and therefore gender neutral (his full name is Otto von Bismarck).

Someone who nowadays refers to Bismacks wife, Johanna, for example, might as well correctly say: "die Bismarck"

 

in german (and iirc atleast mostly in english, but ive read that some are changing it there...) ships are (nearly) ALWAYS Female... DIE Prinz Eugen (von Savoyen), DIE König, DIE Kaiser, DIE Friedrich der Große... DIE Admiral Graf Spee, DIE Admiral Hipper... HMS Hood gets refered to as she iirc... exception for that are (in german language) Star Wars Millenium Falcon (Der Millenium Falke in german... i think i have a single book where he's refered to as she... during reading i carefully change that in my mind :D) and the Kaiserlich und Königliche Navy of Austria-Hungary where afaik all (atleast all Battleships) were (back then) male... it has nothing to do with the gender of the person giving it the name...

 

Why they are refered to as she: countless stories... one is: because early ships were named after godess, later on also after important women which then lead (in some cultures) to the adoption of femine terms for ships (and boats) even if the name is male

another one: because especially BOAT Owners name their boats after important women in their life which the found its way to the big ships

another one: because a ship is the "mother" of a sailor (it cradles him into sleep and protects him from the sea) and his "wive" (he cares for her and the ship cares for him)

or one in poem form

Quote

We always call a ship a ‘she’ and not with out a reason,
For she displays a well shaped stern regardless of the season,
She scorns the man whose heart is faint and does not give him pity,
And like a girl she needs the paint to keep her looking pretty.

For love she’ll brace the ocean vast, be she a tramp ship or liner,
But if you fail to tie her fast you sure that you will lose her,
Be firm with her and she’ll behave, when clouds are dark above you,
And let her take the water wave, praise her and she’ll love you.

For she will take the roughest seas, and angry waves that crowd her,
And in a brand new coat of paint, no girl looks any prouder,
The ship is like a girl at that, she’s feminine and swanky,
You’ll find the one that’s broad and fat, is never mean and cranky.

On ships and girls we pin our hopes, we fondle and love them,
And every man must know his ropes or else he cannot handle them,
Yes, ships are lady like indeed, for take them all together,
The ones that show a lot of speed, can’t stand the roughest weather.

 

here are a few other reasons (some are the same as above)

Spoiler
Quote

The exact reason why boats are called she in English is lost to history. While explanations abound, most appear to be of the folk variety, assumed or invented after the fact as a way to make sense of the phenomenon. Boats are a truly interesting case in English, as they are among the only inanimate objects that take a gendered pronoun, whereas most others are called it. Countries are also called she, as are cars sometimes, but the latter example is almost certainly an extension from boats.

One plausible theory is that boats are called she because they are traditionally given female names, typically the name of an important woman in the life of the boat's owner, such as his mother. It has also been surmised that all ships were once dedicated to goddesses, and later to important mortal women when belief in goddesses waned. Interestingly, although male captains and sailors historically attributed the spirit of a benevolent female figure to their ships, actual women were considered very bad luck at sea.

A second theory as to why boats are called she points to the existence of grammatical gender in most Indo-European languages besides English. While Modern English has hardly any grammatical gender, limited for the most part to cases of natural gender, such as the nouns "woman" and "man" being called she and he respectively, there is evidence that English once has a more extensive system of grammatical gender, similar to that in languages such as German and French. In most Indo-European languages with grammatical gender, the word for "ship" is feminine. In Old English texts, there is more evidence of grammatical gender, such as a shield being called she.

Because English is an Indo-European language, it is most likely that it once had grammatical gender and lost it, since it would be highly unlikely for all the other Indo-European languages with grammatical gender to have acquired the feature independently rather than inheriting it from a common background. Linguistic historians have postulated that proto-Indo-European, the hypothetical "mother language" to all modern Indo-European languages, originally had two genders: animate and inanimate. The inanimate category later split into feminine and neuter, giving three genders: masculine, feminine, and neuter. As each language evolved, so did its system of grammatical gender, so that it has become different in each modern-day Indo-European language.

Whether the fact that boats are called she is a throwback to an ancient system of grammatical gender that has disappeared from English in all but a few instances or an analogy to the reverence that sailors have for the women in their lives, the phenomenon is one of the most interesting anomalies in Modern English. Recently, advocates of gender-neutral or non-sexist language have proposed that ships no longer be called she, but rather it, like any other inanimate object.


A ship is called a “she” because there is always a great deal of bustle around her; there is usually a gang of men about, she has a waist and stays; it takes a lot of paint to keep her good looking; it is not the initial expense that breaks you, it is the upkeep; she can be all decked out; it takes an experienced man to handle her correctly; and without a man at the helm, she is absolutely uncontrollable. She shows her topsides, hides her bottom and when coming into port, always heads for the buoys.

 

 

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20 hours ago, RohmMohc said:

well normaly ships are refered to as she (KuK navy afaik was an exception, there the Warships iirc were refered to as male)... Bismarck is a bit special since Lütjens reffered to the Bismarck (and wanted her to be refered to as) "He" beccause it was a powerful battleship

 

Or maybe those navy stereotypes aren't as absurd as people claim...

 

No Nope, keep it PG

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