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The Sinking of the German Battleship Bismarck

146 posts in this topic

2 hours ago, Stahlvormund101 said:

How effective was Ship AAA in general anyways?


Edit: nevermind, just read about it. basically unless you use proximity shells, which were basically and exclusive US thing, your chance of killing something is ridiculously low.

Especially when you got those tiny bugger flying lower than your AAA can aim lol.

that's was later, 1 were VT fuse rounds used by US:

1 AAA FCS got distance, bearing and speed of enemy planes

2 translated it intro delay

3 gun crew got required delay

4 on fuse setter 3 rounds have set delay + 2 and 3 round had changed delay as they were fired later.

and it repeats.

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9 hours ago, Stahlvormund101 said:

How effective was Ship AAA in general anyways?


Edit: nevermind, just read about it. basically unless you use proximity shells, which were basically and exclusive US thing, your chance of killing something is ridiculously low.

Especially when you got those tiny bugger flying lower than your AAA can aim lol.

Very effective considering the extremerly slow Bie plane would have to fly in a straight line towards a battleships, then realise fairly close to it. A swordfish with a torpedo would be going very very slow. As for AAA, America and britian had reasonable AAA defence having intergrated British radar systems in all allied ships inclueding fire control systems. They both had a lot of practice too. Plus allies had 40mm boffers. I would say the Germans would have had less effective AAA fire, But still certainly enough to hit a slow flying aircraft flying in a straight line towards them.

Edited by Skiny105
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Just a bit of icing on the cake the Swordfish pilots were totally inexperienced and at first almost attacked the cruiser Norfolk. The Bismarck also had all guns inclueding main armerment and anti destroyer secondary's fully depressed and aimed at the incoming 9 aircraft some how all of her shots missed and the Bismarck lost crew members from the one hit and due to extreme evasive maneuvers, all the while the swordfish escape unscathed...

Edited by Skiny105
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37 minutes ago, Skiny105 said:

Very effective considering the extremerly slow Bie plane would have to fly in a straight line towards a battleships, then realise fairly close to it. A swordfish with a torpedo would be going very very slow. As for AAA, America and britian had reasonable AAA defence having intergrated British radar systems in all allied ships inclueding fire control systems. They both had a lot of practice too. Plus allies had 40mm boffers. I would say the Germans would have had less effective AAA fire, But still certainly enough to hit a slow flying aircraft flying in a straight line towards them.

I think I rather go with the actual US Navy sources rather than the personal illusions of grandeur of a random internet guy like you, thank you.

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5 hours ago, Skiny105 said:

Very effective considering the extremerly slow Bie plane would have to fly in a straight line towards a battleships, then realise fairly close to it. A swordfish with a torpedo would be going very very slow. As for AAA, America and britian had reasonable AAA defence having intergrated British radar systems in all allied ships inclueding fire control systems. They both had a lot of practice too. Plus allies had 40mm boffers. I would say the Germans would have had less effective AAA fire, But still certainly enough to hit a slow flying aircraft flying in a straight line towards them.

 

The German flak was the most feared of Europe because of it's precision, 

Ask the 88, this was first a AA gun mate... and it was very effective !

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In comparison with the attacks on the Gneisenau and Scharnhorst in the Channel Dash in 1942 - the Kriegsmarine shot down 3 Swordfish and 1 Hampden with 2 "battlecruisers", 1 heavy cruiser and 6 destroyers that packed a lot more AA than the Bismark did on its own.

 

None of the ships had 88mm FLAK on board - the standard heavy Flak for them was 10.5cm SK C/33 - essentially the FLAK 38.  Lightflak was mostly 37mm, with slightly smaller numbers of 20mm.

Edited by Josephs_Piano
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6 hours ago, Josephs_Piano said:

In comparison with the attacks on the Gneisenau and Scharnhorst in the Channel Dash in 1942 - the Kriegsmarine shot down 3 Swordfish and 1 Hampden with 2 "battlecruisers", 1 heavy cruiser and 6 destroyers that packed a lot more AA than the Bismark did on its own.

So, way more ships only managed to destroy 4 planes of which 3 were the same aforementioned slow Swordfish.

I bet Skiny105 will still say that ship AA was super effective...

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6 hours ago, Josephs_Piano said:

In comparison with the attacks on the Gneisenau and Scharnhorst in the Channel Dash in 1942 - the Kriegsmarine shot down 3 Swordfish and 1 Hampden with 2 "battlecruisers", 1 heavy cruiser and 6 destroyers that packed a lot more AA than the Bismark did on its own.

 

None of the ships had 88mm FLAK on board - the standard heavy Flak for them was 10.5cm SK C/33 - essentially the FLAK 38.  Lightflak was mostly 37mm, with slightly smaller numbers of 20mm.

 

The RAF failed quite a bit that day....

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12 minutes ago, Ghost_Rider12 said:

 

The RAF failed quite a bit that day....

I read it. :D

 

British; mobilizing all they got to sink a single ship in the midst of the Atlantic ocean while they cant prevent 49 ships and boats from passing through their front garden :facepalm:

Edited by Stahlvormund101
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On 19/08/2016 at 7:58 AM, Stahlvormund101 said:

I read it. :D

 

British; mobilizing all they got to sink a single ship in the midst of the Atlantic ocean while they cant prevent 49 ships and boats from passing through their front garden :facepalm:

 

yea lol the story goes that two Spitfires on patrol spotted the German ships heading towards the channel but due to the fact they had been ordered to maintain radio silence they did not report the fact until they landed.........and then the RAF failed to report the fact to the powers at be until to late........:facepalm:

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16 hours ago, Ghost_Rider12 said:

 

yea lol the story goes that two Spitfires on patrol spotted the German ships heading towards the channel but due to the fact they had been ordered to maintain radio silence they did not report the fact until they landed.........and then the RAF failed to report the fact to the powers at be until to late........:facepalm:

"Nigel, I see 5, no 15, no 40 bloody Nazi ships cruising through the channel! Should I report them to HQ?"
 

"Nah, we got order for radio silence. What harm are those Nazi tin cans anyways?".

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On 14.8.2016 at 9:14 PM, BigBawsBarabus said:

But one hit on its rudder system was enough to slow it down for further punishment so your statement is flawed.

 

 

 

Which is quite fascinating ...

had the Bismarck made less evasive maneuvering and had 1-3 Torpedoes hit her somewhere else at the ship (instead of the one hit to the rudders)

her chances of escaping might have been good (well, at least much much better than with the hit to the rudders)

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On 19/8/2016 at 8:58 AM, Stahlvormund101 said:

I read it. :D

 

British; mobilizing all they got to sink a single ship in the midst of the Atlantic ocean while they cant prevent 49 ships and boats from passing through their front garden :facepalm:

And when they mobilize to counter the treath, the RAF got stomped by the luftwaffe. 3 fw190 and 7 bf109 for 16 spitfire/hurry mk2,  6 swordifish and 20 bombers. Huge disaster. Not even counting that during the naval engagement the royal navy sent only some cruisers/PT boats. Result, none of the german ships hit and completly KO brit ships. The only damage suffered by the german naval squad was due mines.

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On 19 August 2016 at 7:35 AM, Stahlvormund101 said:

 

I bet Skiny105 will still say that ship AA was super effective...

No I said it was inferior to allied anti aircraft on ships, but like I said it should have been more than enough on Bismarck to hit straight flying slow swordfish.  As for channel dash that was down to the RAFs failure, I think for some strange and xxxx reason the Home fleet was still based at scapa flow (in Scotland). At least the Luftwaffe were able to shoot down some swordfish and the attacking aircraft. My point was the Fleet air arm was completely obsolete, yet proved to be more effective than most RN ships, and the fact that kreigmarine had difficulty with their AAA shoot down what where basically brittle strange bags is amusing. Especially when you consider the allied ships had more success shooting down Japaneses aircraft in the Pacific that were going probably four times the speed, and at changing angles of attack. 

Edited by Skiny105
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Quite frankly small arms fire from a single MG is enough to destroy a swordfish mate. Let alone actual AAA unless the fire command and men aiming the guns were all blind.

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33 minutes ago, Skiny105 said:

Quite frankly small arms fire from a single MG is enough to destroy a swordfish mate. Let alone actual AAA unless the fire command and men aiming the guns were all blind.

You can squirm all you want, ship AA was not what you'd call "effective" else there was no need for the high RPMs and masses of them to increase the likelihood of a hit ;)

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Many years ago I read that the reason German AA struggled with Swordfish was their predictors didn't have an airspeed setting low enough to give accurate shell bursts....!!

 

Never seen much corroboration for this, but would be interested if there was some factual basis for it.

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The RN beat her into complete submission, and she would have sunk regardless of the scuttling.

 

It's like beating a person into a coma, and then saying the doctor killed the man when he turned the life support off.

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3 hours ago, Eden_Earhart said:

The RN beat her into complete submission, and she would have sunk regardless of the scuttling.

 

It's like beating a person into a coma, and then saying the doctor killed the man when he turned the life support off.

I would not want to be your patient if you think someone in coma is dead already and not worth saving lol.

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18 minutes ago, Stahlvormund101 said:

I would not want to be your patient if you think someone in coma is dead already and not worth saving lol.

Life support is turned off on hopeless cases

Which is quite often.

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28 minutes ago, Eden_Earhart said:

Life support is turned off on hopeless cases

Which is quite often.

And in that case, who did the final step?

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1 minute ago, Stahlvormund101 said:

And in that case, who did the final step?

Probably the guys that knocked out every single gun, decimated the superstructure, set her alight, caused uncontrollable flooding, caused all her crew to abandon ship, and gave her a 20 degree list.

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3 minutes ago, Eden_Earhart said:

Probably the guys that knocked out every single gun, decimated the superstructure, set her alight, caused uncontrollable flooding, caused all her crew to abandon ship, and gave her a 20 degree list.

No, that was the coma.

The crew played uncle Dr. on the ship for the finalé.

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2 minutes ago, Stahlvormund101 said:

No, that was the coma.

The crew played uncle Dr. on the ship for the finalé.

Yeah and you don't put the doctor on murder charges

The scuttling charges sped up her sinking by barely minutes.

Even if the Royal Navy had just buggered off and let her be, they still would have been able to watch her go below the waves before getting out of sight.

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2 hours ago, Eden_Earhart said:

Yeah and you don't put the doctor on murder charges

The scuttling charges sped up her sinking by barely minutes.

Even if the Royal Navy had just buggered off and let her be, they still would have been able to watch her go below the waves before getting out of sight.

scuttling means flooding citadel (machinery is big part of ship, and citadel is designed to keep ship on water even if bow and stern are flooded.) it is one of fastest way to sink ship, without ability to reliably piece Bismarck citadel RN will need much more time to sink it.

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