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Large ship naval battles - Some clarification

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Not to mention the fact that any captain would be hard pressed to go full speed in a destroyer on a map like this, that would be suicide.

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HI look all that tec is ok if your into it ?? but as they have started the beta and have boats all should be concentrating on getting

those right first so we the players can have fun, and yes I missed Friday but have tried again  this Sat and today

The german large Barge type boat has good hitting power  but you can not move, it is Way Way to slow even for a barge??

 The English boat Must have a 3 ton weight in the front, its to low in the water? to slow it should  compare nearly the same

as the USa PT boat, and the torpedoes well east and west and both together ?? Whats that all about?? you just have to point and fire

NO good trying to aim? that needs big fixes, Ok now they have left the sea its about right and the only fun at the moment

is the PT Boat  the 1124 should have both depth charges and mines?? they got rid of the charges Why ?? If you are stopped

in the water at least you could use them as defence? it is also to slow compare action from both the air vehicles and the (Tanks)

ground vehicles and the ships should balance similar? hopefully some one reads this Thread?? Constructive Criticism Hopefully,

and the other thing at least I played early NO problems with computer in game settings, plus it also worked ok when changing

in game settings, and again when returning to normal play so a BIG THANK YOU   

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3 hours ago, PL_Andrev said:

@Iprinz, I like your avatar - its so... true, especially at "W" letter...

:DD

 

All credit goes to @Estorm732, he started it.

 

3 hours ago, Yoshic48 said:

HI look all that tec is ok if your into it ?? but as they have started the beta and have boats all should be concentrating on getting

those right first so we the players can have fun, and yes I missed Friday but have tried again  this Sat and today

The german large Barge type boat has good hitting power  but you can not move, it is Way Way to slow even for a barge??

 The English boat Must have a 3 ton weight in the front, its to low in the water? to slow it should  compare nearly the same

as the USa PT boat, and the torpedoes well east and west and both together ?? Whats that all about?? you just have to point and fire

NO good trying to aim? that needs big fixes, Ok now they have left the sea its about right and the only fun at the moment

is the PT Boat  the 1124 should have both depth charges and mines?? they got rid of the charges Why ?? If you are stopped

in the water at least you could use them as defence? it is also to slow compare action from both the air vehicles and the (Tanks)

ground vehicles and the ships should balance similar? hopefully some one reads this Thread?? Constructive Criticism Hopefully,

and the other thing at least I played early NO problems with computer in game settings, plus it also worked ok when changing

in game settings, and again when returning to normal play so a BIG THANK YOU   

You should go to the CBT section of the forum, that would be a better place.

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14 hours ago, Iprinz said:

Not to mention the fact that any captain would be hard pressed to go full speed in a destroyer on a map like this, that would be suicide.

It probably isn't even big enough for something like a destroyer to get up to even half speed. 

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On ‎11‎.‎2‎.‎2017 at 4:12 AM, Mercedes4321 said:

This part of the reasoning seems rather mute when incredibly slow vessels like that German artillery barge are appearing in the tests.

 

And even the "incredibly fast" ones can't dodge hits anyway so eh..

 

A 30m length target at 2km range going 50 knots(25.7m/s, 92.6km/h) perpendicular to you allows for ~1s worth of miscalculation on the lead distance (at a guess, accounting for shell velocity dropping over distance) to still score hits somewhere on its hull and while a target headed your way (or away from you) is smaller it also doesn't move sideways as much so leading is simpler. It's not like aircraft where the slightest course change or lead misestimation causes you to completely miss the target. Especially when the instructor handles elevation adjustment for you.

 

500km/h = 270 knots.

Shooting boats is easier than shooting a stalling plane (even a Po-2 is faster than the boats. All planes are also smaller, more agile and can move in three dimensions).

 

There are three things that can make shooting enemy vessels tricky:

 

1) Range. With enough flight time on projectile, the enemy can use evasive maneuvers you can't account for when firing. With enough range, inaccuracy of gun will come into play. A 10km range would be 10-15 seconds flight time, depending on weapon, though of course targets would be larger and less maneuverable too. Flight time to 2km (which is more than the average engagement range I've seen on pre-beta footage, generally speaking) is only a few seconds and the ballistic curve such that it is harder for shots to fall short or fly over target (and the automatic elevation system in place prohibits that to a great degree anyway).

 

2) Land/islands. These seem to be very plentiful and closely spaced on a couple of the pre-beta maps. Can't shoot through terrain and, with the aiming system and weaponry in place, not over it either unless very low ground.

 

3) Waves. These appear to have got a mixed response from playerbase - on one hand it made aiming more difficult, which was well received by some. On the other it made aiming feel more RNG to some, which was not well received.

 

 

Edited by tizianenel
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18 hours ago, Iprinz said:

You should go to the CBT section of the forum, that would be a better place.

 

No access to CBT forum. All observations based on YT only.

Do you think I want to spend my money to test... barges?

:D 

 

My money are waiting for this one:

Fu3C3cq.png

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2 hours ago, PL_Andrev said:

 

No access to CBT forum. All observations based on YT only.

Do you think I want to spend my money to test... barges?

:D 

 

My money are waiting for this one:

Fu3C3cq.png

 

I don't think Fubuki (or any DD) would be able to manuever in these puddles cramped with islands. The maps don't seem like they are considering even DDs, sadly? I mean, these maps are made. They will be in the rotation. Each player will have a random lineup. How could one even play in any of these maps with a DD in their lineup? Only the convoy one can work, making only 1 out of 4 feasible.

 

If they implement a map filter depending on the vehicle type, that's essentially dividing naval fishing forces into two different game modes, "big boats" and "small boats" (and in this case implementing large ships suddenly becomes easy - those who prefer this "boring" mode will simply choose a corresponding vehicle and wait their heart out while others can participate in their dakkafest.)

Edited by Estorm732
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39 minutes ago, Estorm732 said:

 

I don't think Fubuki (or any DD) would be able to manuever in these puddles cramped with islands. The maps don't seem like they are considering even DDs, sadly? I mean, these maps are made. They will be in the rotation. Each player will have a random lineup. How could one even play in any of these maps with a DD in their lineup? Only the convoy one can work, making only 1 out of 4 feasible.

 

If they implement a map filter depending on the vehicle type, that's essentially dividing naval fishing forces into two different game modes, "big boats" and "small boats" (and in this case implementing large ships suddenly becomes easy - those who prefer this "boring" mode will simply choose a corresponding vehicle and wait their heart out while others can participate in their dakkafest.)

Sadly it feels they have already decided on the fate of real ships, the whole "testing will see" argument is as paper thin as their reason for not doing large ships in the first place. The Current BR's and maps are enough to make me even most disillusioned. 

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23 hours ago, the_suztown said:

Sadly it feels they have already decided on the fate of real ships, the whole "testing will see" argument is as paper thin as their reason for not doing large ships in the first place. The Current BR's and maps are enough to make me even most disillusioned. 

 

Hmmm... there is only few hulls available as small gunboats. The last German barge is a comedy, but I don't believe that Gaijin will develop barges and PT-boats only.

The frigates / corvettes / destroyers are not so big ships but much more playable than "ships" what we already have. 

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So I am back with updated suggestion. Feedback is always welcome.:salute:

4 hours ago, ShadowRangerCZ said:
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Firstly I must say that I know this is test can´t be considered as finished, but still I must express it. Personally, I think the gameplay itself is relatively fun, but I see a few problems here:

 

  1. The gameplay is basically the same as in tanks with only one difference and that is the main armament usually consists of rapid-fire guns so the game instead of using your brain just turns into mindless shooting at the enemy.
  2. Map design is what I like on WT maps because maps are not strictly symmetrical, and therefore the gameplay quite diverse because each player suits other position and therefore does not happen that all players drove to one same position. Unfortunately at the boats Gaijin has chosen the path of fully symmetrical maps and I believe it will result in very repetitive gameplay.
  3. The last reason is that the gameplay is not much different from the tank so I think that don´t bring much new players to the game.

 

This proposal, with few exceptions already has an existing game mechanics that are only slightly modified for ships necessities. The only class of ship that will need a completely new game mechanics are carriers otherwise all ships use existing mechanics. Additionally, I assume that Gaijin has some basic functions for ships finished from the Alpha test.

 

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Important Questions & answers

Here are the questions from this discussion. (In the future)

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There is some clarification from: Thanks to @the_suztown  :salute:

  1. Upto 2-3+KMs for turning (How many minutes just turning the ship ? 10-20 ?) so could take an entire 20 min game just turning the large ship"
    • While this is true it is also true that many large ships, Battleships included can make emergency turns within 500 meters, this IRL did have effects on the ships structural integrity and could cause damage to the ship, but it could be handled like WEP or G-lock on aircraft, can be used for a short time but after a certain point/after a certain amount of time can start damaging the ships hull.
  2. Upto 5KMs for accelerating or slowing down large ships (Again how many minutes to Speed up or slow down ?)
    • Generally I've only seen this number from full stop to Full emergency, to change from 1/3rd to ahead full would only take about 4 minutes (I'll try and find something to back this up) but changing speed isn't the problem, its going from stop to full that takes a while.
  3. Takes 4+ Hours or days to play BBs or CVs... not within 20 minute Matches.
    • Now this is a common misconception, the Battles did not take hours, the preparation did, the dancing for position, the waiting for favorable conditions and the chases. These machines had many many crew and captains/admirals where not whilling to charge in just like players will, they feared death and damage, we do not, but back to my point, most of the fighting on Navel conflicts only lasted 20 minutes to about an hour, if you time it from first shots fired to sinking/retreating.
  4. Takes up to days for BBs or CVs to sink... not within 20 minute matches.
    • Again, another misconception Most ships there where damaged to the point of sinking sunk within minutes, Yes they took huge amounts of damage but this is considering misses, fuses not fusing,glancing blows and the ffact most battle where done over the horizon, in game this in unlikely to happen, players will be much more accurate and much closer plus every shell will work like it was supposed to.Takes up to days for BBs or CVs to sink... not within 20 minute matches
  5. How to balance RP/SL income for such large ships with upto 100s of Targets or Player kills/Damage done or 4+ Hours or up to days taken to play large ships?
    • This will not be problems explained above, but economy is completely arbitrary anyway so i dont see why this is an issue at all.How to balance RP/SL income for such large ships with upto 100s of Targets or Player kills/Damage done or 4+ Hours or up to days taken to play large ships?
  6. Ship performances will not be dulled down or nerfed like in some other arcade games

    • They will not need to be dulled down at all but after playing some of this pre-beta you've basically made the other game but on a smaller scale in my opinion.

  7. 1,000s of Crew, all modeled and have jobs to do.

    • Why Model them all at all times? why not the ones doing important jobs such as engine crew, gunnery crew and command crew? then have a modal called "crew quarters" which houses none important crew and as its hit it takes out certain amounts of crew till its destroyed? have maybe 2 or 3 of them on the ship and when the modeled crew are hit it draws from the crew quarters before dragging other people off their station.

  8. Fire/Flooding and Damage Controls.

    • I dont how this would be any different than what is being done on small boats at the moment, the only considerations would be compartmentalization which is already bing done to some extent, maybe have a way to prioritize what the crew fixes first, flooding, fires or modules? maybe on the damage panel clicking one of the items will set it to priority.

  9. Ship gun fire-control systems and or ballistics.

    • Well that seems to be figured out in the current system, while arcady as hell it is workable, Most kinds of different fire control is ignored on tanks (save for stabilizers) so I dont see why ships would be any different in that sense.

And some questions from you:

  • What will happen if my PT meets the mighty BBs? Their secondary armament will just tear me apart!
    • Simple. When you are in queue for a PT, and (probably) FF, you will enter a PT/FF/DD-only game. DD on low tiers will have a 50/50 (because BRs) chance of entering a regular battle or a game with smaller vessels. The small vessels mode can be something like the current "convoy" mode, or it can be a fast-paced hit-and-run game in maps with many islands and battle scenarios for large boats are written in the draft. Additionally, there are island part where smaller boats/ships can hide.

 

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mODsUXD.jpg

 

General gameplay

The main problem in the implementation of ships is just the gameplay, because ships are very different from current machinery that we have now in the game, as the armament as in size but also in the number of crew members.

 Therefore the gameplay ships must be diametrically opposed to the gameplay aircraft and tanks. As Gaijin itself states battle in the classic PvP mode could take a very long time. That´s why in my opinion would be directed more to the Co-Op gameplay. It would mean that each of the teams should make his task that must fulfil to win or lose.

   Another problem of how to allow players to have full control on ships. How to enable players to control primary, secondary, and antiaircraft and torpedo armament. To illustrate the proposal I add a keyboard layout. For battleships, cruisers and destroyers.

THuxLRW.png

A player could change the type of ammunition only for the primary equipment, player will be able to control the primary and secondary weapons together, but it could also control the secondary armament independently. AA would have been controlled by AI, but the player could control AA itself. For dual purpose guns player could choose if it will operate as secondary weapons or leave them to AI as AA guns. A player could of course control torpedo tubes or throwing depth charges. The main change in control against tanks is controlling of the cannon using entering elevation via mouse wheel or keys R and F from the perspective of "rangefinder".

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AB:

DVGaFIk.jpg

RB:

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SB:

b0yPYyK.jpg

 

Scout planes

Reconnaissance aircraft would in the game worked mainly as spotters and the player would able use them to check the accuracy of fire. 

The player would like for aircraft carriers had a chance to adjust flight altitude (not in battle but before the battle - as well as guns targeting distance for aircraft) and for reconnaissance ships would still be able to set the radius of circling around the ship. Additionally, there could be a possibility to switch on "firing mode" where the aircraft circled at set distance and in the same direction it is heading primary weapon.

Here is pre-battle UI.

jwa8JQs.png

 

paragraf.png

 

Damage model

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Damage model is also one of the most important game mechanics.

The main problem is that the ship is capable to sustain enormous damage. Therefore, it is necessary to set clear rules when the ship is unable to fight and player can´t control it. Ship will be destroyable according to the proposal in several ways. 1)destroy the bridge 2)destroy 60% of equipment (50% - primary armament, 50% - secondary armament, AA, torpedoes) 3)cause irreparable damage to underwater part of ship - ship is taking  water and gradually sinks after drawing a certain amount of water the ship is declared unable to fight. 4)detonation of ammunition stores. 5)explosion of engines.

Another problem is that the boats are compared to tanks and planes huge. This means that it is not possible to model every detail, so I suggest that the ship is divided into zones as the main battery, bridge, ammunition depot, engine and boiler rooms etc. Each of these sections would have assigned certain number of crewmen.

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Here you can see the bridge and weaponry.

bjTj3sL.jpg

There are other parts of the ship. Storages of ammunition, boiler room, engine room, rangefinders.

 

Every part of the ship (the tower primary batteries, secondary armament, bridge, engine room, boiler room etc.) should be assigned the number crewman. Whichever is this part of the ship would be those crewman associated properties (if they operate a cannon battery so it's "Gun battery crew" when speaking about the bridge so there would be a crew divided into "Captain" and "Steerman" the engine room and boiler room would be "damage control crew") if you have received damage to this part so you will lose part of the crewmans and thereby decreases the efficiency of their abilities.

Damage models:

Simplified DM

  • In this model, the fire could not initiate an explosion of ammunition. And And the destruction of a ship by explosion could only be possible by an explosion of primary ammunition stores.
  • Mechanics of repair crews. The squads would automatically repaired and extinguish modules. In the case of the destruction of some of the primary module would activate a player to "fix" that would be at the expense of other less important modules.

 

Complex DM

  • In this model of course a fire could initiate an explosion of ammunition and would also fire had different strength that would affect its parameters.
  • Destruction of ships explosion would be possible by explosion of other ammunition stores than the primary but these options would be affected by the state of the hull.
  • The modules in the red condition could be destroyed during use.
  • Repair crews would automatically repaired undestroyed modules and extinguish the fire with lower levels. For fire destroyed modules and fire higher level player would have to activate the "repair" during extinguishing fire would cause a temporary decommissioning of the module.
  • In case of emergency turning or braking / acceleration would occur after a certain time, damage to the hull and rudder or engines.

 

 

paragraf.png

 

 

Maps, spawn mechanics and reload time

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Mission could be set to battle lasted at most 1 hour. Here are suggestions to real-world locations.

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Game objectives:

  • Convoy - every team has convoy is supposed to protect and get it to the designated locations while preventing enemy convoy from reaching locations - the winner is the team that will have more ships in a convoy.

nLzrPum.jpg

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Baltic Sea Convoy.pngMarshall Islands Convoy.pngKwaialein Convoy.pngSaipan Convoy.pngMalta map SM.pngOkinawa Convoy.png

  • Landing - one team has the task of protecting the landing convoy and the other has the task to stop the convoy before reaching the landing area - - The team that wins if it prevents landed enough units if so, the attacking team wins.

wImDS6Q.jpg

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Okinawa Landing.pngGuam Landing.pngGuadalcanal Landing Convoy.gifGuadalcanal Landing.pngSaipan Landing.pngSavo Island Landing.pngBaltic Sea Landing.png

  • Protection / Attack on Convoy - one team protecting the convoy and the other attacking on it together with AI assault flotillas - if to the target area gets at least part of the convoy won the team that protects the convoy.  If the target area of the convoy ships not get so attacking team wins.

tKK3WaP.jpg

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Fjords Convoy Defense-Attack.gifSavo Island Convoy Defense-Attack.gifSaipan Convoy Defense-Attack.gifBritan Convoy Attack-Defense.gifGuam Convoy Defense-Attack.gifOkinawa Convoy Defense-Attack.gif

  • Conquest - every team has the task of protecting the convoy, which occupies a key area the team which occupies an area wins - win the team who manages to get to the target location more ships
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Marshall Islands Conquest.png

  • Low tier scenarios are designed for low tier vessels (boats and the first destroyer) - win team, that will fulfill the task before
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Malta LowTier.pngBritan LowTier.png

 

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Deployment of spawn and spawn mechanic setup is very important both for balance and for the fun of the game itself.

  Therefore, I propose to spawning of players was not limited to any number of deployment or points (AB and RB, SB points for a chance to take another boat / plane) because the duration of the battle would be as well set to fixed amount of time using tasks in the mission. As stated above. Spawn should be positioned so that a player got into range in 3 minutes.

 This configuration and setup tasks in the mission should allow the player not getting bored during the battle and even at the end when the normally entertaining battle usually subsiding because on the map is only few players.

 

On the map are spawns:

 

  • Aircraft carriers
  • Battleships
  • Heavy cruisers
  • Light cruisers
  • Destroyers
  • Boats
  • Convoy

 

Classes in the game:

 

 

  • Aircraft carriers
  • Escort aircraft carriers
  • Battleships
  • Battle cruisers
  • Heavy cruisers
  • Light cruisers
  • Destroyer leader
  • Destroyers
  • Gunboats
  • Torpedo boats

 

Class ships - spawns intended for them. (Turn of spawn gives primary - secondary - tertiary spawn)

 

  • Aircraft carriers - Aircraft carriers + battleships
  • Escort Aircraft carriers - Aircraft carriers + convoy
  • Battleships - Battleships
  • Battle cruisers - Battleships + heavy cruisers
  • Heavy cruisers - Heavy cruisers + light cruisers
  • Light cruisers - Light cruisers + convoy
  • Destroyer leader - Destroyersw + convoy + light cruisers
  • Destroyer - Destroyers + convoy
  • Gunboats - Boats + destroyers
  • Torpedo boats - Boats

Ilustration:

Malta map SM.png

 

Additionaly you can reduce the number of deployment with the SP. (SP battle begins - 1000)

  • Aircraft carriers - 1000 (one deployment)
  • Escort aircraft carriers - 1000 (one deployments)
  • Battleships - 1000 (one deployments)
  • Battle cruisers - 900 (two deployments)
  • Heavy cruisers - 800 (two deployments)
  • Light cruisers - 700 (three deployments)
  • Destroyer leader - 600 (four deployments)
  • Destroyers - 500 (four deployments)
  • Gunboats - 300 (four deployments)
  • Torpedo boats - 200 (four deployments)

Deployments apply to all machines in a battle not only for the chosen type of ship!

 

Reload time:

  • Standard cannon - in this case, the charging time guns was not accelerated since most longest reloading guns reloading as long as the KV-2  and in addition opposed to tanks ships have secondary armament which reload approximately 10 seconds.
  • Torpedoes - Reload time torpedoes would be accelerated, although it is not their primary weapons but reload time of torpedoes, according to reality took a long time, so I suggest reloading of the torpedoes were adjusted for each ship but would set some rules. For example: diameter of the torpedo to 500 mm = reloading up to 1 min, diameter of the torpedo to 600 mm = reloading torpedoes up to 2 min - we already have field repairs that are even more unrealistic.
  • Plane squads - Rearmament would also be speeded up due to a long time. Length rearmament would depend on the number of airplanes in the squad. Length rearmament aircraft would begin at 1:30 min or longer. This would be because the player would control e.g. 5 groups would in my opinion not matter when it would be longer.

 

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Game modes & crossvehicle gameplay

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Game modes

First, I wanted to clarify what I expect from specific modes.

  • AB - This mode can imagine as a quick action that is easy to understand.
  • RB - In this mode, expect a more strategic gameplay and realistic handling of various ship types.
  • SB - Here suppose the effort to complete handling of naval combat.

 

 

AB

  • Reloading of some weapons would be accelerated (torpedoes, aircraft)
  • Rotating of Turret would be accelerated
  • Rotating of rudder would be accelerated
  • Turning radius could be reduced
  • Engine power would be increased
  • Spotting system with range
  • Unlimited respawns
  • Simplified DM
  • Ships would start at full speed.

RB

  • Reloading of some weapons would be accelerated (torpedoes, aircraft)
  • Rotating of rudder would be accelerated
  • Spotting system
  • Unlimited number of respawns (only SP)
  • Complex DM
  • Ships would start at full speed.

SB

  • Only one respawn
  • Complex DM
  • Ships could start at full speed.

 

 Combined battle would be different according to the mode in modes AB and RB would be a combination of aircraft + ship, in SB mode could theoretically work combinations tanks + plane + ship.

 

d1nbKqN.jpg

 

 Since ships will likely ship-aircraft so it is necessary that players in the aircraft had a chance to rearm. This could be resolved by either AI aircraft carriers and airport maps. Thanks to sufficient size could be Objective airports plus airport would allow easier rearmament for players in military airplanes.

 The reason that the ships are armed with very strong anti-aircraft batteries. So the players airplanes should increase greatly rewards.

 Task of players in aircrafts would be mainly to mark enemies and fulfill the secondary tasks or destroy enemy ground defenses.

 To balance the AI squadrons and players in airplanes possibly AA defenses ships will have a player in the aircraft squadron and 4 respawn in a squadron. Player will pay only one plane destroyed.

 

paragraf.png

 

sXzAx4E.png

 

 Combined battles in combination tanks + plane + ship could be in SB in the form of ending confrontation where tanks could pnit their tasks. Ustatní conditions would be the same as for airplanes.

 

 

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Balance

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 The first thing we must realize is that each of the states (which are in WT) had to develop different approach to its marine structures. Germany and the Soviet Union because of its location simply did not have to build a large and as powerful fleet as USA, GBR, japan.

 If we want to balanc nations we have to ralize that the teams were divided like in tank RB (of course, this applies only to RB and possibly SB). This would mean that the nation would not be fully aligned to the others in all classes if the ships is sufficiently interesting. This decision I present here does not solve the problem that some nations are not possible to compile a complete line of ships (mainly battleships).

 Therefore I propose, that nations wich do not have enough ships to populate the tree, should receive ships that were not completed for various reasons (only unfinished ships). These ships are under construction, thanks to some stage of construction we known basic technical specifications, in addition, most of these ships is very similar to their counterparts.

 

There are proposals on the technological tree: Unfinished projects are indicated - !

Note: These TTs do not reflect the BR rank but showing only position in Tier and in research process.

USA

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Germany

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USSR

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Britan

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Japan

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Tech trees with BRs.

USA

USA
Destroyers Light cruisers Heavy cruisers Battleships Aircaft carriers Premium
PT-20 BR 1.0 Elco 80ft BR 1.7        
PT-59 BR 1.3 Elco 80ft mod1 BR 2.3       PT-109
PT-103 BR 2.7 Elco 80ft mod2 BR 2.7 PT-810 BR 3.3 PT-59 (PG) BR 3.3    
           
Evarts (DE) 4.0 Raven (AM) BR 3.3 Flower (K) BR 4.3 Erie (PG) BR 5.3   Auk (AM) BR 3.7
Edsall (DE) BR 4.0   River (FF) BR 4.7     Monterey (BM) BR 5.3
Cassin (DD) BR 4.3 Admirable (AM) BR 4.0   Arkansas (BM) 5.3    
  Tacoma (FF) BR 4.0 Terror (CM) BR 4.7 South Carolina (BB) BR 5.7 Langley (CV) BR 5.0  
Sampson (DD) BR 4.7     Delaware (BB) BR 6.3 Bogue (CVE) BR 5.7  
Caldwell (DD) BR 5.0 Omaha (CL) BR 5.7 Pensacola (CA) BR 6.3 Florida (BB) BR 6.3 Archer (CVE) BR 5.7 John C. Butler-class BR 5.0
Benham (DD) BR 5.3   Northampton (CA) BR 6.3     Wyoming (BB) BR 6.7
Sims (DD) BR 5.7 Atlanta (CL) BR 6.3 Portland (CA) BR 6.7 New York (BB) BR 7.0 Lexington (CV) BR 5.7  
Mahan (DD) BR 5.7     Pennsylvania (BB) BR 7.3 Saipan (CVL) BR 6.0 Oakland (CL) BR 6.3
Benson (DD) BR 6.0 Brooklyn (CL) BR 7.0 New Orleans (CA) BR 6.7 New Mexico (BB) BR 7.3    
Gleaves (DD) BR 6.0 St. Louis (CL) BR 7.0 Wichita (CA) BR 7.0 Tennesse (BB) BR 7.3 Ranger (CV) BR 6.3 USS Wasp CV-7 BR 6.7
Fletcher (DD) BR 6.3     Nevada (BB) BR 7.7 Independence (CVL) BR 6.3 USS Monaghan (DD-354) BR 6.3
Porter (DD) BR 6.7 Cleveland (CL) BR 7.3 Baltimore (CA) BR 7.3 Colorado (BB) BR 8.0   USS Lexington CC-1 BR 7.3
  Fargo (CL) BR 7.3     Yorktown (CV) BR 6.7 USS Enterprise CV(N)-6 BR 7.3
Allen M. Sumner (DD) BR 7.0   Oregon city (CA) BR 7.3 North Carolina (BB) BR 8.3    
Gearing (DD) BR 7.3 Worcester (CL) BR 7.7 Des Moines (CA) BR 7.7 South Dakota (BB) BR 8.7 Essex (CV) BR 8.0  
    Alaska (CC) BR 8.0 Iowa (BB) BR 9.0 Midway (CV) 9.0  

Germany

Germany
Destroyers Light cruisers Heavy cruisers Battleships Premium
  LS-1 BR 1.0      
S-174 BR 2.7 VS8 hydrofoil BR 2.0   Artilleriefahrprahm D1 BR 3.3  
Type140 Jaguar BR 3.0     Artilleriefahrprahm D3 BR 3.7  
S-100 BR 3.3   MFL (AM) BR 3.7   S-204 BR 3.3
T-1911 (V1) (DD) BR 3.7 Polarkreis (PG) BR 3.7 Carl Kämpf (SC) BR 3.7 Kanonenboot 1938K (PG) BR 4.7  
T-1913 (DD) BR 4.0 KUJ41 (SC) BR 3.7 MZ 1 BR 4.0   APE (SC)
    G1 (PG) BR 4.3 Biber (BM) BR 5.3  
T-1935 (PT) BR 4.3 Kolberg (CL) BR 5.3 F (PG) BR 4.3 Kaiser (BB) BR 5.7  
T-1923 (PT) BR 4.7 Magdeburg (CL) BR 5.3   König (BB) BR 6.3  
T-1924 (PT) BR 4.7 Karlsruhe (CL) BR 5.3 Moltke (CC) BR 5.3   TA31 (PT)
    Seydlitz (CA) BR 5.3    
  Graudenz (CL) BR 5.3      
T-1934 (DD) BR 5.7     Bayern (BB) BR 7.3 Weser (CV)
T-1934A (DD) BR 5.7 Köln (CL) BR 5.7      
Fletcher (DD) BR 6.3 Emden (CL) BR 6.0 Derfflinger (CC) BR 6.3   Graf Zeppelin (CV)
        ZF2 (DD)
  Königsberg (CL) BR 6.7 Mackensen! (CC) BR 7.0 Scharnhorst (CC) BR 7.7 Nürnberg (CL)
Type 1936A (DD) BR 6.7 Leipzig (CL) BR 7.0   Tirpitz (BB) BR 8.0 Bismarck (BB)
T-1936A(mob) (DD) BR 7.0 Nürnberg (CL) BR 7.3      
T-1936C (DD) BR 7.3 M-class! (CL) BR 7.7 Deutschland (CA) BR 7.0 H-39! (BB) BR 9.0  
Hamburg (DD) BR 7.3 Admiral Hipper (CA) BR 7.7 Ersatz Yorck! (CC) BR 8.0    

USSR

SSSR
Destroyers Cruisers Battleships Premium
G5 BR 1.0 D3 BR 1.0 Ya-5 BR 1.0  
BMO BR 2.0 OD-200 BR MO-4 BR 1.7  
  MBK 161 (1943) BR 2.3 pr.1124 ack BR 2.0 pr.1124
pr.183 BR 2.7 MBK 161 (1944) BR 2.7 MKL 186 BR 3.0  
EK-32 (PG) BR 3.7 pr.191/(M) BR 3.0 MKL 186 mk.85 BR 3.3  
EK-34 (PG) BR 3.7 MPK 122bis BR 4.0 Kola BR 4.7 EK-41 (PG)
Novik BR 4.7 Vladimir Polukhin (AM) BR 4.0 Falcon (PG) BR 4.7  
Orfej BR 4.7 Albatros (PG) BR 4.7 Purga (PG) BR 4.7  
  Yaguar (PG) BR 4.7 Gangmut BR 6.0  
Fidonisy BR 4.7 Světlana BR 5.3 Imperatrica Marija BR 6.3  
Izyaslav BR 5.0 Murmansk BR 5.7 Demokratiya (BB) BR 6.3  
Lovkyj BR 5.3 Čapajev BR 6.7    
Opytnyj BR 5.7     Novorossiysk (BB)
Storoževoj BR 5.7 Kirov BR 7.0 Izmail! BR 6.7 Kerch (CL)
Ognavoj BR 6.0 Petropavlovsk BR 7.0   Arkhangelsk (BB)
Leningrad BR 6.3      
Gnevny BR 6.3     Admiral Makarov (CL)
Neustashimy BR 6.7 Maxim Gorky BR 7.3 Kronshtadt! BR 7.7  
pr. 30bis BR 6.7 Sverdlov BR 7.7    
Tashkent BR 7.3 Shcherbakov (CL) BR 7.7 Sovetsky Soyuz! BR 9.0  
Kotlin BR 7.3 Stalingrad! BR 8.0    

United Kingdom

Britan
Destroyers Light cruisers Heavy cruisers Battleships Aircraft carriers Premium
  Fairmile C BR 1.7        
    Fairmile D 601 BR 3.0      
Dark MTB BR 2.3 Dark MGB BR 3.3 Fairmile D 617 BR 3.0      
  Bathurst (K) BR 3.7        
Kingfisher (PG) BR 3.3 Castle (K) BR 3.7   SGB (PG) BR 3.3    
  Black Swan (PG) BR 5.0   Whitby (FF) BR 4.7    
Beagle (G) BR 4.3 Caroline BR 5.3 Hunt 3nd (DE) BR 4.3 Leopard (FF) BR 5.0    
Acorn (H) BR 4.7 Ceres BR 5.3 Bittern (PG) BR 4.7   Vindictive BR 5.0 Abdiel (CM)
Laforey (L) BR 4.7 Sirius BR 5.7 Hunt 2nd (DE) BR 4.7 Neptune BR 5.7 Eage 1918 BR 5.3 Emerald (CL)
M class BR 4.7 Tiger BR 5.7 Invincible BR 5.7 Colossus BR 5.7 Argus BR 5.3 Exeter (CA)
W class BR 4.7 Caledon BR 5.7 Indefatigable BR 5.7     Furious (CC/CV) BR 5.3
Scott BR 5.3 Danae BR 6.0 Courageous BR 6.0 Orion BR 6.7 Ark Royal BR 5.7 A class (DL) BR 5.5
A / B class BR 5.3 Arethusa BR 6.3 Lion BR 6.0 King George V BR 6.7    
E / F class BR 5.7 Emerald BR 6.3 Queen Mary BR 6.3 Iron Duke BR 7.0 Illustious BR 6.0  
Tribal BR 5.7 Leander BR 6.7 Yorck BR 6.3 Queen Elizabeth BR 7.3 Unicorn BR 6.0 Superb (CL)
I class BR 6.0 Minotaur BR 7.0 Country BR 6.7 Revenge BR 7.3 Indomitable BR 6.3  
L / M class BR 6.3 Southampton BR 7.3 Tiger BR 6.7   Implacable BR 6.7  
J / K class BR 6.3 Gloucester BR 7.3 Renown BR 7.0 Nelson BR 7.7   Fiji (CL)
Weapon BR 6.7   Exeter BR 7.3 King George V BR 8.0 1942 Design Light Fleet Carrier BR 7.0  
Battle BR 7.0 Crown Colony BR 7.7 Hood BR 7.7 Vanguard BR 8.3 Eagle BR 8.3  
Daring BR 7.3 Edinburgh BR 7.7   Lion BR 9.0 Centaur BR 9.0  

Japan

Japan
Destroyers Light cruisers Heavy cruisers Battleships Aircraf carriers Premium
T14 BR 1.0          
T14 mod.01 BR 1.0          
  Type 11 PT-15 BR 2.7 No.13 BR 3.0      
    No.30 BR 3.3      
Erimo (ML) BR 3.3 Ikazuchi (FF) BR 3.7 Akebono (FF) BR 3.7      
Wakatake (ML) BR 3.7   Kusu (FF) BR 4.0 19-go (AM) BR 4.7   Asahi (FF) BR 4.0
  Matsu (DE) BR 4.3 Ōhama (PG) BR 4.0 Shimushu (PG) BR 4.0    
Urakaze BR 4.3 Kuma BR 5.3 Mikura "B" (PG) BR 4.3   Hosho BR 5.0  
Umikaze BR 4.7 Natori BR 5.7   Kawachi BR 5.7 Zuiho BR 5.3  
Isokaze BR 4.7 Katori BR 6.0 Furukata BR 6.0   Ryūhō BR 5.3 Tomozuru (PT) BR 4.7
Kamikaze 1922 BR 5.0 Sendai BR 6.0 Aoba BR 6.3   Ryujo BR 5.3 Otori (PT) BR 5.0
Minekaze BR 5.0 Naka 1943 BR 6.3   Kongō BR 6.7 Hiyō BR 5.7  
    Myōkō BR 7.0   Unryū BR 6.0 Tachibana (DE) BR 5.3
      Fusō BR 7.3    
Mutsuki BR 5.3 Yasoshima (Ping Hai) BR 6.3 Tone BR 7.0 Ise BR 7.3 Hiryu BR 6.3 Kaga (BB) 8.7
Hatsuaharu BR 5.7   Maya BR 7.3 Amagi! BR 8.0   Ise (BB/CV) 7.3
Fubuki BR 6.0   Agato BR 7.7 Nagato BR 8.3 Shinano BR 6.7  
Kagerō BR 6.0 Ōyodo BR 7.0 Takao BR 7.7   Kaga BR 6.7  
Asashio BR 6.3 Agano BR 7.3 Mogami Heavy BR 7.7 Tosa! BR 8.7 Akagi BR 6.7  
Akizuki BR 7.3 Mogami BR 7.7 Ibuki! BR 8.0 Kii! BR 9.0 Shokaku BR 7.3  
Shimikaze BR 7.3     Yamato BR 9.3 Taihō BR 8.0  

 

PS: Is it possible that there are some mistakes caused by transcript, if you find some please report it to me.:salute:

 

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Modification & crew

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As with aircraft and tanks player would be able to gradually improve his ship in the already known areas: mobility, resistance equipment.

Mobility in player being able to improve the response of the rudder and its resistance, the same for boilers and turbines. As with aircraft and tanks would be the player to his ship and gradually improve the already known areas: mobility, resistance equipment.Mobility in a player being able to improve the response of the rudder and its resistance, the same for boilers and turbines. In the resistance player could fit anti-torpedo bulge, and possibly modify the hull to carry different weapons.In armor player could modernize primary and secondary weaponry, improve rangefinders, reserch new type of ammunition, refit the AA batteries, change the type of torpedotubes.

  • Change of weapons only applies to ships that passed by this modification this also applies to change of anti-torpedo bulge and modification of the hull.

Ilustrations:

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Mobility

Surviability

 

Weaponry

 

 

 

 

 

 

Rudder modification

Anti-torpedo bulge

Main batery modification

 

 

 

 

 

New projectile type

Secondary guns type change

Boiler modificatio

Hull modificatio

Rangefinder modification

 

Torpedo type change

Turbine modification

 

 

AA batery refit

 

For carriers there would be extra column of the aircraft crew. see:

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Mobility

Surviability

Weaponry

Planes

 

 

Secondary guns type change

Fighters refit

Rudder modification

Anti-torpedo bulge

 

Dive bombers refit

 

 

New projectile type

Torpedo bombers refit

Boiler modificatio

Hull modificatio

Rangefinder modification

Catapults maintenance

Turbine modification

 

AA batery refit

 

 

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K0tDpdY.jpg

 

The crew would also functioned as for tanks and aircraft, with only one difference that is you didn´t practice one person but the whole group.The crew is divided into 5 parts (at carriers to 6), namely: the gun crew, antiaircraft batteries crew, fire / repair squad, captain and steersman.

 Every part of the ship (the tower primary batteries, secondary armament, bridge, engine room, boiler room etc.) should be assigned the number crewman. Whichever is this part of the ship would be those crewman associated properties (if they operate a cannon battery so it's "Gun battery crew" when speaking about the bridge so there would be a crew divided into "Captain" and "Steerman" the engine room and boiler room would be "damage control crew") if you have received damage to this part so you will lose part of the crewmans and thereby decreases the efficiency of their abilities.

 

Guns crew:

  • Guns aiming
  • Distance measuring
  • Reloading
  • Surveillance
  • Vitality

 

AA batteries crew:

  • Accuracy of fire
  • Fire precision
  • Reloading
  • Keen vision
  • Vitality

 

Fire / repair squad:

  • Repair speed
  • Repair rank
  • Reaction time - Time after which the fire / repair squad will begin a extinguish / repair a heavily damaged parts of ship.
  • Maintenance - Ongoing repair of slightly damaged parts of the ship.
  • Vitality

 

Steersman:

  • Ship steering
  • Keen vision
  • Vitality

 

Captain:

  • Leadership
  • Keen vision
  • Vitality

 

Ilustration:

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Gun battery crew

AA battery crew

Damage control crew

Steerman

Captain

Targeting

Fire accuracy

Repair speed

Ship steering

Leadership

Rangefinding

Fire precision

Repair rank

Keen vision

Keen vision

Reloading

Reloading

Reaction time

Vitality

Vitality

Keen vision

Keen vision

Maitenence

 

 

Vitality

Vitality

Vitality

 

 

For carriers there would be extra column crew of aircraft:

  • Keen vision
  • G-tolerance
  • Firing training
  • Aircraft maintenance
  • Aircraft rearming
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Gun battery crew

AA battery crew

Damage control crew

Steerman

Captain

Planes crew

Targeting

Fire accuracy

Repair speed

Ship steering

Leadership

Keen vision

Rangefinding

Fire precision

Repair rank

Keen vision

Keen vision

G-tolerance

Reloading

Reloading

Reaction time

Vitality

Vitality

Fire training

Keen vision

Keen vision

Maitenence

 

 

Planes maitenence

Vitality

Vitality

Vitality

 

 

Planes rearming

 

 

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Economy

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yS3fA6L.jpg

 

Economy on ships must be different. As written Scarper vessels are large and can absorb a large amount of hits and their firepower is many times larger than the tanks. But the ship can also be destroyed by one lucky hit.

Therefore, I propose that the raised points for hits.

 

 !This calculations apply for bigger caliber than 40mm  and this constant could also apply for torpedoes!

  • Points calculation could be, for example: (caliber of gun number of hits / number of guns)x10
  • For carrier base bombers and their bombs (bomb weight number of hits )x10
  • For player bombers: (bomb weight number of hits )x100
  • For AA calculations are unchanged.
  • Kill calculation 1000 points for one kill.
  • For spotting players would receive 1 point per second.

 

 

Spotting

Each ship should have range of spotting about 15 km. Ship with radar should have range increased to 20 km. This spot would be limited for 3 seconds every 20 seconds. Moreover, there was a spot using airplanes that could be within a radius of 5 km around the aircraft and would apply the same rules as the classic spot.

 

Final earnings

From the points collected in battle would then calculate earnings of SL and RP. For this calculation could be the number of points multiplied or divided as needed Gaijin.

 

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Ship classes

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 Battleships will be heaviest ships in which I present my proposal. They carry the heaviest weaponry and heaviest armor of all types of vessels present here.

 In the battle should form a class that will devastate the enemy from a distance using their primary guns. Their style of play would very much like a game style of heavy TD. The main task of the player for this class is destroying AI fortifications on the islands and to suppress enemy with fire from main guns. The player but would have to keep an eye on enemy aircraft and enemy destroyers that it may threaten using their torpedoes.

  Simply battleship will represent a feared enemy at a distance, but upon closer distance will be very vulnerable from lighter and more maneuverable classes.

 

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1B1wixA.jpg

 

Aircraft carriers would be one of the strangest classes of ships that a player could play. In my proposal, the carriers perform more supportive role. The main task of a player playing as this class would protect their teammates using fighter and destroy enemies using bombers. The main aspect of the game would be a map on which they were display all teammates and marked / hit enemies.

k01K2W4.png

 

A player could send a group of planes and they will be guided around the map. Also player could enter "orders" them by holding right button. These commands would be protection, attack, grouping and allowing direct control of the player.

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3WH9vm1.jpg

These commands they will not always apply to all groups and aircraft:

  • Command attack - would go only apply to enemy aircraft, but for all types of aircraft. - Aircraft realize the attack to enemy aircraft group.
  • Command protection - could be used on allied planes and ships, but also to the areas on the map, this action could only be realize by fighters. - Airplanes circled over a specified point and protect him from enemy aircraft.
  • The command group - would apply only to allied aircraft, and would allow control multiple groups at once
  • Command control - would make it possible to control a group directly by player and enable to attack by a torpedo / bombs to ships.

wLEwXDf.png

umiIpg8.jpg

 

When direct control by a player all other aircraft continue to the last point of destination and the carrier would continue in this direction and the same speed. The player would control the whole group of airplanes. see:

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AB - RB - SB

43tBDA2.png

6IBvUot.png

lh1WcVD.png

 

Because not all nations have aircraft carriers so I conceive carriers to more supportive class ships. I want to achieve this by the fact that the carriers didn´t have spoted enemy from other ships. Either the enemy was spoted by "voice communications" or player would have to spot enemies himself. see:

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rzwsZ7z.jpg

MRe3RGJ.jpg

I have created the illustration gif for gameplay aircraft carriers.

WarThunderCarrierGameplay (1).gif

 

 

Carriers should have completely different UI. In pre-battlefield UI if the player chose what aircraft will be as fighters, bombers and torpedo bombers. For them could choose weapons, altitude and quantity of fuel.

Also, there a player could chose ratio of squadrons of the aircrafts.

3SsWb2e.png

 

During the battle for control of the aircraft it was necessary to create new UI. In the UI player would determine the equipment for the mission. Also, there would be menu where the player would launch air groups. The actual control by orders would be undertaken through the minimap.

 

bd0_UU.gif

 

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xajEJBU.jpg

 

 This type is a combination of light cruisers and battleships. Although this type hasn´t so powerful armor and heavy guns as battleships, but armament is heavier than the light cruisers, plus they are more mobile compared to the battlefield.

 This type is unlike light cruisers higher caliber guns which allows him to attack from a distance and in addition with these guns player can to invade battleships "face to face".

 Otherwise, this class of ships has very similar gameplay to light cruisers.

 

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LsGkyAJ.jpg

 

Cruisers are the most numerous type in my proposal. This type combines high mobility and at the same time sufficient firepower.
  On the battlefield will be the most versatile type. The player will be able to attack the AI fortifications to protect the convoy, while suppressing the enemy, but also be able to fight at short distances due to their mobility. At the same time but they do not have enough heavy guns, but compensate for this deficit with great fire speed, which achieves less than 10 seconds between volleys from primary guns on some ships. Additionally, this type usually has a very strong anti-aircraft battery through which players will be able to use to protecting other types of ships.

 

paragraf.png

 

zp0VVVZ.jpg

 

This type is the most mobile of all ships. It's nejpohyblivějším type, but neither cannon armament and armor is very weak. But thanks to its mobility and torpedoe armament can effectively destroy the heavier ships.
  Gameplay of this class is similar to the light tanks and light tanks fighters. The main task of the player for this type of ship is to protect allies and attack enemy convoys, and if he surprise the opposing player he can easily destroy him with torpedoes.

 

paragraf.png

 

KaVXVIv.jpg

 

 Of course we must not forget that our boats Gaijin already introduced. Of course, that would not be fully separated from the first boat. This class would constitute the first ships to which player would be met in the higher Tier could form a more supportive role.

 

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oPHUdeL.png

 

How all this be implemented? How to get the necessary feedback?

  •  Here I would like to suggest a way Gaijin could get feedback. Gaijin has already Bismarck model and some basic mechanics and UI have the internal test. So the first phase would be to do mechanics for battleships and put it in the form of event to CBT testers.
  • Subsequently to do each remaining model type and again to give testers this time longer.
  • And finally, give it to the community as a special event.

  Subsequently you after each battle can show scoreboard. Where would the players through a vote where the players evaluated the progress of the battle.

 

paragraf.png

 

Please observations and constructive criticism:salute:

This proposal I will be edited by appropriate remarks.

Finally, I would like to thank everyone who commented on the proposal in the Czech-Slovak section, and thus helped me in drafting this proposal.

 

Special thanks

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Jerson - for helping me with translation from czech.

the_suztown - for helping me with clarification and giving me some ideas from his tread

Davvids -  for realy good suggestion and corrections

*Grayfox061palmatius100 - for providing realy, realy big feedback to my suggestions and being active in this tread

Lord_of_Sofa - for being skeptical and thereby propel me forward

KOMMyHuCT_USSR - for promotion of my proposal in the Russian community, and perhaps the administration of the Russian version of my proposal :noob:

 

 

Edited by ShadowRangerCZ
  • Upvote 8

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4 hours ago, ShadowRangerCZ said:

So I am back with updated suggestion. Feedback is always welcome.:salute:

 

Mate, this is the most complex solution I have ever seen...

:008:

 

You should publish it at "suggestion" area (try to split it to several parts as I did for my WWM proposal).

OK, now is time to my feedback:

 

Crew:

From current test I know that Gaijin prepared ships with 58 crew members - if 58 are possible, why not 2800 or more?

I know that Gaijin solved it already: some repairs on Kronshtadt-class sub chaser (Proj. 122 bis) took 1000+ seconds...

 

PT vs Battleship

Single PT-boat have a big chance to hit BB by torpedo:

  • PT is a extremelly small target for BBs guns,
  • side of BB is a large taget for torpedoes
  • big guns will be not so effective against "canoes" (you know why BB needs DD guards, do you?)
  • MG is heavy range-limited guns,
  • there is a small chance to play one PT-boat against one BB: there are more tagets than only one small torpedo boats.

Scouts / planes:

Big ships (and aircrafts) had a planes to use. Some players may use them: when inactive (being already killed) or players who want to play planes only.

 

DM:

There are three types of damages:

- critical hits (damaging / destroying critical element of ship: turret(s), bridge, engines, rudder + screw, main artillery deck, fuel, ammo, electrical systems, pumps

- fire (make systems unavailable by fire, require crew to fight with it - decrease efficiency of main systems)

- flood (make ship heavier, make system unavailable by flood, require crew to fight with it - do not decrease efficiency of main systems (electrical pumps).

 

Ships is destroyed when totally flooded, exploded (ammo explosion by fire, flooded engine / hi-temp & hi-press steam turbine) or bridge (officers) is destroyed (no more officers on deck).

 

Missions:

Two mission types may be available:

1) naval battle (balanced battle)

2) convoy battle (one team attack convoy, opposite def it, convoy's K/D ratio in 20 minutes is a main points for team

 

I'm not sure double convoys are good idea,

 

Tanks:

Not sure tanks should be involved in navy battle.

But as WWm mode one merchants may transport up to 10 / 20 tanks (or war supplies). But only for WW mode, where naval transport is a strategic / tactical idea to transport land units to use them at non-local conflict.

 

Aircraft-carrier:

Not playable unit: used as a plane source (repair & rearm). Players who are killed or decide to play planes use carrier as a main base.

For non-carrier nations (Germany, USSR) some air-spawns may be available to make game more ballanced.

 

Submarines:

Well, I'm fan of subs here. 

Subs may be used as "convoy battle" (to create extra "convoy" mode: subs against destroyers).

Destroyers role may be fixed here: detect subs and keep them away from valuable units (BBs/CVs).

You know that Kronshtadt-class sub chaser has already equipped with working hedgehog, stern and side DC throwers, are you?

Well... submarines may be AI unit only too...

  • Upvote 5

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On 19. 2. 2017 at 7:46 PM, PL_Andrev said:

 

Mate, this is the most complex solution I have ever seen...

:008:

 

You should publish it at "suggestion" area (try to split it to several parts as I did for my WWM proposal).

OK, now is time to my feedback:

 

Really thank you for your feedback. The proposal is already published in PRE-CBT section.;) From time to time I'm posting the current version because I want to know the opinion of other members of the community. :salute:

 

Quote

Crew:

From current test I know that Gaijin prepared ships with 58 crew members - if 58 are possible, why not 2800 or more?

I know that Gaijin solved it already: some repairs on Kronshtadt-class sub chaser (Proj. 122 bis) took 1000+ seconds...

 

For the crew there is a problem in clarity and polygons personally think that if you could solve it by using the given circumstances for parts ship so Gaijin saves a lot of work and makes it more comfortable for the players.

Yes it works but it's slightly confusing and moreover imagine an even larger scale. These are pretty much cosmetic that can be made leter.

 

Quote

PT vs Battleship

Single PT-boat have a big chance to hit BB by torpedo:

  • PT is a extremelly small target for BBs guns,
  • side of BB is a large taget for torpedoes
  • big guns will be not so effective against "canoes" (you know why BB needs DD guards, do you?)
  • MG is heavy range-limited guns,
  • there is a small chance to play one PT-boat against one BB: there are more tagets than only one small torpedo boats.

 

Yes, I I present one possibility of two possible only there is a problem regarding ships as MZ 1 and Kronshtadt which are effective against the canoes but relatively useless against large ships. 

They can test both options and then decide which is better.

 

Quote

Scouts / planes:

Big ships (and aircrafts) had a planes to use. Some players may use them: when inactive (being already killed) or players who want to play planes only.

 

After the death of the ship if the player could take the plane as well as in the tanks (when would have deployments - with aircraft carriers and battleships is only one) Reconnaissance aircraft would operate only as a spotter and lookout for shooting at greater distances because in the WT is simulated curvature of the earth (if I'm not wrong):dntknw:

 

Quote

Missions:

Two mission types may be available:

1) naval battle (balanced battle)

2) convoy battle (one team attack convoy, opposite def it, convoy's K/D ratio in 20 minutes is a main points for team

 

I'm not sure double convoys are good idea,

 

Yes, two convoys are slightly strange but again it is the easiest mode for programming. How do you think that naval battle?

 

Quote

Tanks:

Not sure tanks should be involved in navy battle.

But as WWm mode one merchants may transport up to 10 / 20 tanks (or war supplies). But only for WW mode, where naval transport is a strategic / tactical idea to transport land units to use them at non-local conflict.

 

I've added that basically just because they Gaijin argued that large ships couldn´t operate with tanks while in other Q'n'A denied the possibility of combining boats and tanks. I do not understand myself.:facepalm::D:dntknw:

 

Quote

Aircraft-carrier:

Not playable unit: used as a plane source (repair & rearm). Players who are killed or decide to play planes use carrier as a main base.

For non-carrier nations (Germany, USSR) some air-spawns may be available to make game more ballanced.

 

I think this would be a pity if the carriers haven´t be playable after all in the WW2 they took over supremacy on the battlefield. In terms of balance it should not be a problem because Germany, the USSR would still have been combined with its allies, plus trying to make a supportive class aircraft carriers. It just needs a lot of work.

 

Quote

Submarines:

Well, I'm fan of subs here. 

Subs may be used as "convoy battle" (to create extra "convoy" mode: subs against destroyers).

Destroyers role may be fixed here: detect subs and keep them away from valuable units (BBs/CVs).

You know that Kronshtadt-class sub chaser has already equipped with working hedgehog, stern and side DC throwers, are you?

Well... submarines may be AI unit only too...

 

It's pretty frequent reminder I am thinking about adding paragraph regarding submarines.

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48 minutes ago, ShadowRangerCZ said:

After the death of the ship if the player could take the plane as well as in the tanks (when would have deployments - with aircraft carriers and battleships is only one) Reconnaissance aircraft would operate only as a spotter and lookout for shooting at greater distances because in the WT is simulated curvature of the earth (if I'm not wrong)

 

Not sure reconnaissance plane idea is good - look what players are doing with "free plane event" at AB mode. So I expect kamikaze raids instead "reconnaissance...

Anyway, each battleship had a radar station so the radar may operate up to 40km to spot target - reconnaissance is not required then. But of course, I'm quite sure that players who are eliminated from ships may used planes at air-spawn or start from carrier.

 

Imagine that is is a form of battle self-balance, where players may use planes to attack enemies instead quit the battle. 

Secondary, the main targets for pilots are sink enemy carrier (to stop plane spawning)...

 

 

48 minutes ago, ShadowRangerCZ said:

Yes, two convoys are slightly strange but again it is the easiest mode for programming. How do you think that naval battle?

 

This is not programming issue but balancing problem only. I've played several multiplayer battles SH2 vs. DC (submarines versus destroyers) and each battle were calculated as:

  • tonnage sunk by submarines (merchants + destroyers)
  • saved convoy (merchants + hunted submarines)

About navy battle: there may be a few kinds of battles, bases at the weather, time, and era (ww1, early ww2, late ww2 with radar)

The visible level decreased to 10km (or more).

 

day battle / task force

both teams are equipped with carrier(s) and use planes 

all BBs see "undetected" targets on map (and smaller units if equipped with radar)

main order (finishing the battle): find carriers and eliminate them

minor orders: eliminate enemy fleets

 

day battle / naval battle

no carriers / no planes (mission designed to play USSR / Germany)

all BBs see "undetected" targets on map (and smaller units if equipped with radar)

main order (finishing the battle): find battleships and eliminate them

minor orders: eliminate enemy fleets

 

convoy protection (with / without CVs)

time-limited battle,

victory / defeat based on % of destroyed/saved merchants

 

convoy battle (DDs vs. SUBs)

time-limited battle,

victory / defeat based on % of destroyed/saved merchants

 

night battle versions

no planes in use, orders as above;

ships should use races to light the targets before shots

 

 

48 minutes ago, ShadowRangerCZ said:

I think this would be a pity if the carriers haven´t be playable after all in the WW2 they took over supremacy on the battlefield. In terms of balance it should not be a problem because Germany, the USSR would still have been combined with its allies, plus trying to make a supportive class aircraft carriers. It just needs a lot of work.

 

Well, generaly playable carriers may be "unplayable" - I expect a boring game only: a lot of players LOVE go to 1st line and attack the enemy. Unfortunately "another games about navy battles" offers plane controlling, WT too (GF AB mode) but I'm afraid that leaving CV to play planes is not so smart.

The much better idea is protecting CV as a primary target.

 

By the way - a "years" ago when I played WT planes there were missions with fleet blockage: battle ended when all three carriers of one team were sunk.

 

 

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23 hours ago, PL_Andrev said:

 

  1. Not sure reconnaissance plane idea is good - look what players are doing with "free plane event" at AB mode. So I expect kamikaze raids instead "reconnaissance...
  2. Anyway, each battleship had a radar station so the radar may operate up to 40km to spot target - reconnaissance is not required then. But of course, I'm quite sure that players who are eliminated from ships may used planes at air-spawn or start from carrier.
  3. Imagine that is is a form of battle self-balance, where players may use planes to attack enemies instead quit the battle. 
  4. Secondary, the main targets for pilots are sink enemy carrier (to stop plane spawning)...

 

 

  1. You do not get it. These reconnaissance planes couldn´t be controled by player directly only before the battle you would set the height and radius of circling around the ship. The plane would spotting and the player would have to switch to its position only for an overview of the battlefield or to control accuracy of the fire.
  2. 40 km is perhaps a bit much for the game.
    Quote

    Spotting

    Each ship should have range of spotting about 15 km. Ship with radar should have range increased to 20 km. This spot would be limited for 3 seconds every 20 seconds. Moreover, there was a spot using airplanes that could be within a radius of 5 km around the aircraft and would apply the same rules as the classic spot.

     

  3. Maybe I could redesign the deployments to apply only to ships.
  4. I do not think it's a good idea to limit spawn only on aircraft carriers.

We will see.

 

Quote

This is not programming issue but balancing problem only. I've played several multiplayer battles SH2 vs. DC (submarines versus destroyers) and each battle were calculated as:

  • tonnage sunk by submarines (merchants + destroyers)
  • saved convoy (merchants + hunted submarines)

About navy battle: there may be a few kinds of battles, bases at the weather, time, and era (ww1, early ww2, late ww2 with radar)

The visible level decreased to 10km (or more).

 

day battle / task force

both teams are equipped with carrier(s) and use planes 

all BBs see "undetected" targets on map (and smaller units if equipped with radar)

main order (finishing the battle): find carriers and eliminate them

minor orders: eliminate enemy fleets

 

day battle / naval battle

no carriers / no planes (mission designed to play USSR / Germany)

all BBs see "undetected" targets on map (and smaller units if equipped with radar)

main order (finishing the battle): find battleships and eliminate them

minor orders: eliminate enemy fleets

 

convoy protection (with / without CVs)

time-limited battle,

victory / defeat based on % of destroyed/saved merchants

 

convoy battle (DDs vs. SUBs)

time-limited battle,

victory / defeat based on % of destroyed/saved merchants

 

night battle versions

no planes in use, orders as above;

ships should use races to light the targets before shots

 

 

 

Well, generaly playable carriers may be "unplayable" - I expect a boring game only: a lot of players LOVE go to 1st line and attack the enemy. Unfortunately "another games about navy battles" offers plane controlling, WT too (GF AB mode) but I'm afraid that leaving CV to play planes is not so smart.

The much better idea is protecting CV as a primary target.

 

By the way - a "years" ago when I played WT planes there were missions with fleet blockage: battle ended when all three carriers of one team were sunk.

 

 

Thank you for explain.

  • But I have one comment to your way of solving a very stretching battles that they continue indefinitely.

For aircraft carriers.

  • When I see how many players are refusing to move in tanks from their camp sites. And how many players play for the bombers do not I don´t think it would be too boring.
  • It will be difficult to handle it properly so that carriers have become useless but again not too much impact on the course of the battle but this could be achieved by extending rearmament time, power of air defense and some other ways.

 

It's very interesting that the France can have full carrier line (not so much filled but full) with jet fighters on top carrier. Also France could ve match up as with US+UK+USSR but too with GER+japan+(It) So top tier would ve balanced.

Edited by ShadowRangerCZ
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Generally I tried to match all my ideas to current WT mechanics / gameplay.

So generally is no sense to create proposals outside WT engine features. Anyway...

 

20 hours ago, ShadowRangerCZ said:
  1. You do not get it. These reconnaissance planes couldn´t be controled by player directly only before the battle you would set the height and radius of circling around the ship. The plane would spotting and the player would have to switch to its position only for an overview of the battlefield or to control accuracy of the fire.

 

This idea does not exist in game. 

Secondly I don't understand how may it work.

 

 

20 hours ago, ShadowRangerCZ said:
  1. 40 km is perhaps a bit much for the game.

 

Right, but 40km  (42km?) is a maximal distance where BB may detect another BB (top of most by top of mast).

You can fire with it but... I wrote that the best idea is a "fog" decreasing spotting range up to 10 km. In this solution you may fire, but you should go to keep the visual contact with enemy.

And again: at the 10km you may see and hit battleships, but hit fast destroyers, gunboats or fast light cruisers is not so possible.

 

 

20 hours ago, ShadowRangerCZ said:
  1. I do not think it's a good idea to limit spawn only on aircraft carriers.

  

I mean limited spawns for planes, if both teams play with carriers. Of course it need tests - for random battle maybe not, but for WWM...

From another point of view you have unlimited planes (GF AB) or number of planes limited to your results (GF RB).

I'm a fan pay-for-each-plane if you play GF or Navy.

But OK, some BBs and CAs have plane on board - please include them.

 

 

20 hours ago, ShadowRangerCZ said:
  • When I see how many players are refusing to move in tanks from their camp sites. And how many players play for the bombers do not I don´t think it would be too boring.
  • It will be difficult to handle it properly so that carriers have become useless but again not too much impact on the course of the battle but this could be achieved by extending rearmament time, power of air defense and some other ways.

 

Well -maybe it has a sense, if you want to play planes (by controlling carrier). But I've played several battles at "another game about ships" and there players are very frustrated when their carriers have no defense. Their activity is running away and sending planes to attack enemies. Similar mechanics require engine changing. I'm afraid that too many people decide to play carriers to leave ship and control "group" of planes as we have in single mission idea.

So maybe the non-playable carrier as primary target for navy team / planes (players who decide to play plane first) is a good idea. 

Not useless (gives a spawn of "unlimited" planes for players) but a primary target to both teams.

 

 

Edited by PL_Andrev
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When I saw the initial War Thunder Naval forces, the one with the Bismark (I think) I was like: "Oh yes! Realistic modular ship battles!" Then I saw the PT boats and thought, "Ok... maybe those will be premium..." 

 

A few days later...

"No player controlled battleships or cruisers will be added."

Well, Sh*t.

 

(still waiting for at least a Gearing)

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20 minutes ago, PL_Andrev said:

Generally I tried to match all my ideas to current WT mechanics / gameplay.

So generally is no sense to create proposals outside WT engine features. Anyway...

 

This idea does not exist in game. 

Secondly I don't understand how may it work.

 

I try to mostly copy the mechanics in the game but we see ship these mechanics must be adjusted as seen in the pre-beta testing. Additionally, as Gaijin presented himself there should be player-controlled aircraft carriers (in the past), so a foundation to build on what is here.

HERE AND HERE AND PROOF HERE

Mainly WT engine originally supported only aircraft. (If I'm not mistaken)

 

Quote

Right, but 40km  (42km?) is a maximal distance where BB may detect another BB (top of most by top of mast).

You can fire with it but... I wrote that the best idea is a "fog" decreasing spotting range up to 10 km. In this solution you may fire, but you should go to keep the visual contact with enemy.

 

And again: at the 10km you may see and hit battleships, but hit fast destroyers, gunboats or fast light cruisers is not so possible

 

Yes, yes in reality but imagine how it would look in the game if a ship with radar saw virtually everything at a distance of about 40 km. But if introduced ping radar so, the distance can be extended.

 

Not impossible, just difficult, in addition to this shooting distance firing also secondary guns.

 

Quote

I mean limited spawns for planes, if both teams play with carriers. Of course it need tests - for random battle maybe not, but for WWM...

From another point of view you have unlimited planes (GF AB) or number of planes limited to your results (GF RB).

I'm a fan pay-for-each-plane if you play GF or Navy.

But OK, some BBs and CAs have plane on board - please include them

 

Yes WWM all yes for this but no for random battle.

 

Quote

Well -maybe it have sense, if you want to play planes (by controlling carrier). But I've played several battles at "another game about ships" and there players are very frustrated when their carriers have no defence. Their activity is running away and sending planes to attack enemies. Similar mechanics require engine changing. I'm afraid that too many people decide to play carriers to leave ship and control "group" of planes as we have in single mission idea.

 

So maybe the non-playable carrier as primary target for navy team / planes (players who decide to play plane first) is a good idea. 

Not useless (gives a spawn of "unlimited" planes for players) but a primary target to both teams.

 

Because a player can not control the secondary cannons :facepalm: which would of course could in WT.

 

Quote

This idea does not exist in game. 

Secondly I don't understand how may it work.

But OK, some BBs and CAs have plane on board - please include them

 

Really simple plane would move in a circle with a radius that would adjust the player, and at hight which he would have also set up. The player could then move on its position and that observe the battlefield.

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1 hour ago, ShadowRangerCZ said:

Yes, yes in reality but imagine how it would look in the game if a ship with radar saw virtually everything at a distance of about 40 km. But if introduced ping radar so, the distance can be extended.

 

Not sure the radar distance may be calculated at early radar construction, but let say yes. What a problem then?

  • you know the distance to the target (sure with accuracy to hundred meters),
  • you don't know class of ship,
  • you don't know course and speed of target,

So you exactly don't know where you should to shot and where you shot hits the water (splashes over visible range).

Even with full visibility in range it is hard to do that... and looking at current navy gameplay it is hard to shot target at distance over 1 km...

 

Additionally this is perfect example to team / players cooperation, where:

  • battleship or CA shots (over visible range)
  • recon plane / sub / fast destroyer / gunboat at visible range is observing the hits and correcting the fire by speakers.

 

 

1 hour ago, ShadowRangerCZ said:

Really simple plane would move in a circle with a radius that would adjust the player, and at hight which he would have also set up. The player could then move on its position and that observe the battlefield.

 

Sorry mate, but WT engine doesn't allow jump between vehicles as Battlestation series did.

So you can observe battlefield by ship's binocular / artillery room rangefinder only. 

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18 hours ago, PL_Andrev said:

 

Not sure the radar distance may be calculated at early radar construction, but let say yes. What a problem then?

  • you know the distance to the target (sure with accuracy to hundred meters),
  • you don't know class of ship,
  • you don't know course and speed of target,

So you exactly don't know where you should to shot and where you shot hits the water (splashes over visible range).

Even with full visibility in range it is hard to do that... and looking at current navy gameplay it is hard to shot target at distance over 1 km...

 

Additionally this is perfect example to team / players cooperation, where:

  • battleship or CA shots (over visible range)
  • recon plane / sub / fast destroyer / gunboat at visible range is observing the hits and correcting the fire by speakers.

 

 

 

Sorry mate, but WT engine doesn't allow jump between vehicles as Battlestation series did.

So you can observe battlefield by ship's binocular / artillery room rangefinder only. 

Reply to the first paragraph I will write tomorrow I'm not at the computer.

UPDATE:

How you model this in the game? In the game you will always know which direction the ship is sailing. And thanks to the speed of the shift on the screen / minimap you also estimate the speed. Ping radar is better i think.

UNFORTUNATELY such cooperation would not work. So I think that observation aircraft would solve this problem well.

 

Isn't view of the observer in battles something like this?

Moreover, it would not substantially shift between the two vehicles but the observation aircraft would only be placing the camera. Aircraft wouldn't be in control. It would work like aircrafts in tank AB but without controling the aircraft. So it should be posible.

Edited by ShadowRangerCZ
Added text to the first part.

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18 hours ago, PL_Andrev said:

Sorry mate, but WT engine doesn't allow jump between vehicles as Battlestation series did.

So you can observe battlefield by ship's binocular / artillery room rangefinder only. 

 

Well, engine wise it actually does. Like jumping into a plane in AB. You can also take control of remaining AI units if you die in some of the single missions.

 

Whether this fits into the multiplayer meta of WT is another story however. I'll agree that letting the player control multiple vehicles at once is not very WT-ish. Though if it's a matter of pure observation, then it could be possible. We can observe bombs/rockets/torpedoes by pressing U, something that is completely unrealistic and arguably necessary. Looking through the eyes of an obervation plane is somewhat similiar.

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32 minutes ago, Estorm732 said:

 

Well, engine wise it actually does. Like jumping into a plane in AB. You can also take control of remaining AI units if you die in some of the single missions.

 

Whether this fits into the multiplayer meta of WT is another story however. I'll agree that letting the player control multiple vehicles at once is not very WT-ish. Though if it's a matter of pure observation, then it could be possible. We can observe bombs/rockets/torpedoes by pressing U, something that is completely unrealistic and arguably necessary. Looking through the eyes of an obervation plane is somewhat similiar.

In fact, in my suggestion you never control directly multiple machines. It is always indirectly. ;) Like squads in singleplayer campaign.

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