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Feedback: Enduring Confrontation Test (RB)


Knock...knock...somebody there? Any chance we see EC for RB soon again? Or are you still busy thinking about ways to make more money with EC in SB - although you have the solution for getting more players and therefor more paying customers with  this gamemode right in front of you?

 

Or are you happy with roundabout 50k players worldwide on an average day...

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My little feedback, specific to this session :

 

Pros :

  • 32vs32, you will find people, no "flying for nothing".
  • Lots of ground targets, good variety of locations, could be even more places to find ground targets to spread even more the players.
  • Good spawn points and timer balance.
  • Balanced decks, maybe the 109F4 is a bit overkill and easy mode versus yaks 7 and LA5. That specific plane could use a little bump in spawn points.
  • Did only two battles, but didn't have any bug.

Cons :

  • Enemy markers, this is the main problem for me, they just kill the metagame and the overall experience, turning a huge map into a small furball, most of players just fly straight for the closest red spot.
  • Battles too short ? It doesn't feel that much "enduring".
  • Not enough players using attackers and bombers, this point increases the "furballing fighters" symptom. Lower bomber's spawnpoints and bump fighter's ones as a solution ? Increase slightly their rewards ?

I'll come back a bit over the markers, they need an important rework and are the most problematic thing in EC, we shouldn't be able to see planes at 35 km, don't really know what to imagine about this, but they clearly are ruining the meta and pushing the players to just pick their fighters and furball without any reason, in the end it turns EC as a simple big AB map, that won't help players to feel the immersion and love the mode.

Btw, thanks for the session Gaijin, please don't let us starve without EC for months in RB like you did in the past.

Edited by Leandrys
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-snip-

Good points all around.
But it's frustrating to see all of the games end too quickly because of all the russian teams players leaving early on, effectively leaving a team full of bots.

Also i noticed some bugs, but it might be because of the massive amount of players and ground targets.
A friend and me played in a squad. He couldn't see my marker on the screen (i did see his), and in the scoreboard it showed me as a parachute. Even though i had taken off 5 minutes earlier.

Edited by TheAnnoyingFinn
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75000 points end battle is way way way tooooooo low.

I don't get it why did you shortened it? If someone wants shorter game or can't play that long then he has other modes or can leave anytime he wants.. but for us who like long games there is no other option, only to quit WT and play some other game. Make it 150000 again or even double that.

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Today I've played the best EC RB game ever !!!

Generaly I felt "the magic" of real war (non-boring) and what it shoud be in World War mode.

It was new exciting experience - I was sure that WarThunder cannot surprise me so positively...

 

What happened

 

It was - you know - common day in EC: common orders like destroy far far away convoy, destroy far far away airfield, help to far far away battle...

And at one point of my game...

 

A battle was activated directly at the frindly airfield! I saw a lot of tanks and hovitzers who encircle our airfiled! Just left the plane and change my armament to bomb and help to our forces to eliminate enemy forces which were so close to us!!!

 

Start ... find the target ...  release the bomb ... landing ... rearm... start... again and again!

It was really gorgeous! 

 

 

Adventages:

  • General surprised battle - me and a lot of players felt that our airfield is critically unsafe and may be permanently lost to enemy
  • A lot of planes / players changes their activity to fast eliminate attacking enemy tanks,
  • A lot of players returnes immediatelly to airbase for new bombs,
  • Almost face-to-face tanks vs palnes attacks,
  • Absolutelly amasing experience...

 

Disadventages (spotted only technical issues):

  • Whole battle was activated imediatelly - enemy tanks appear imediatelly on battlefield (no visual movement of front line or too big steps for activating new battles)
  • Solid-state hovitzers are appear immediatelly too,
  • Tanks didn't shot to planes,
  • Tanks didn't try to capture airfield (it is core value for me: tanks should capture airfield to use them by enemy side), 
  • My fighter was totally unoperational with 250kg bomb (no bomb aimer),
  • No AA support for attacking enemy GF group,
  • A little sick front line: it looks like airfield was captured and enemy tanks try to attack next sector (our airfield - enemy attacking line - friendly defence line)

 

Few screenshots

  • Enemy forces left our airfield:

UBu2ZFe.png

 

 

  • Attacking Ground Forces did not act with easy target: landing or rearming planes:

9U8IxfC.png

 

 

Summary:

I was surprised how close the battle is for us / for our airfield.

Battle might be more amasing if our forces defend the airfield and enemy tanks tried to capture the airfield similar to random air battles, where tanks are capturing the airfield.

It was the point when I forgot about long-fly and time-consumption game / battle.

 

This ^^ was almost what I want to see in World War mode.

Absolutelly amazing - Thanks!

 

:salute:

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yea, at 15fps because of all the Ai or some other crazy reason..... no thanks. finally the return of HB EC and I can't even play it..... WHOO!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Edited by Agrias
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Tried the EC again as i wanted to see how frontline mechanic was and i do not touch SB so, thanks for allowing me to experience it.

Let me start off by saying i was gladly surprised at seeing the Frontline, those red and blue lines moving after one side did the tasks and such. Very nice work guys. I do not praise you often Gajin but this is a good step forward compare to previous EC test. :salute: .

Sadly like other mention i still have issue with the mode so allow me to explain why:

1: Was too short, it did not act as a Enduring mode to me. Please reconsider and raise the point needed for victory again.
2: 64 players create a cluster-beep. I do not like to see this but i can not really blame Gajin on this

The problem with 64 players is most will jump into a fighters, because let be fair we are all used to TDM mentality and people will go where dogfight is, they will climb straight into the action and what often likely to happen is fighting is centered around a single area on the map. With 64 players this create the cluster-beep. Now i do have two suggestion that can help the issue or the very least create more point of action then 1 main central dogfight somewhere.

Have the frontline mechanic create more ground zone at the same time. with 64 players why not make it 3 zone, left, center,right. This would helpfully spread out players more across the map.

Second idea is to lower the victory score given per airkill. I am a fighter player myself and to really create a more dynamic match/battlefield i think a better incentive to protect bombers/attackers and focus on these ground target to win the match/battle is a possible key.

And thirdly, the spotting system need a adjustment guys. Limit the personally spotting range to 7km. Reduce when allies give your shared vision, by that i mean if a ally is 7km away from you then you should not be able to see what they do. If the ally is within , fine. Or you can do like what Il2 BoS do..markers become grey and unknown contact until you within 6-7km of it.

Edited by Star23_16
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Or you can do like what Il2 BoS do..markers become grey and unknown contact until you within 6-7km of it.

I liked this VERY much about IL2 BoS in normal difficulty. The spotting system makes you able to see all planes within about 10km radius, but EVERYONE beyond about 5-6km have a gray marker above the plane, within it changes and you see what is ally and what is enemy, but you still do not see any noames or what distance they are at. WT could use a spotting system like that, progressive spotting.

 

I would suggest..

Beyond 10km it's the normal "Spot the dot"

10-6km Show a gray marker above the plane with no distance indications.

5.9-4km That gray marker change to show friend, or foe(blue, or red) but still no distance indications.

3.9km-> You can see distance, plane type and names like you do now.

And kinda like Star said.. If you have an ally within 4km of yourself then you can see what he sees beyond your own range, extending your own visual range from a max 10km to 14km, friend and foe identification range from 6 to 10km.

 

Oh.. and PLEASE do something to prevent players from getting into a huge clusterf-beep- Add more active zones on the frontline.

 

LOL From altitude it was kinda like watching someone play the old game, Lemmings.. You saw one plane after the other take off and head straight for the clusterf-beep- not caring about anything, looked like a string of pearls.

For those that are to young to remember it...
Edited by Skeptical_Bunny
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I've missed this thread at first, as it says "Feedback" I just paste mine here from the general announcement discussion:

 

 

It's getting really solid!

 

Timer function is at a good amount now, the time definitely allows for some tweaking when changing planes, however idling isn't possible - good thing!

 

Plane setups are really competitive, no side seems to have an advantage and a lot of different planes are able to participate: definitely done the right way.

 

Front line dynamics seem to work properly, however the vehicle battles seem to be too short lived to really make a difference on the strategical level for the single player or the team. You would need to land as they pop up, jump right into an attacker and get there asap if you want to have any influence on it. The battles really should be there for longer, also it'd be great if they would interfere more with the static weapons that are there all the time.

 

Vehicle columns work fine, I havent spent enough time around them to tell how their approaches are going though, but they seem to do fine.

 

Ai bombers on runways are a sight - I was surprised at how many bomber players ignore them in their airfield run and just bomb center of airfield. No need for monster kills it seems...

 

Tickets are bugged it seems, the battles end prematurely with no apparent reason. I hope that's something easy to fix, it's just borked now.

 

 

overall resume: great event, I'm really happy that we can see EC for RB again!!!

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General bug spotted - battle is finished when 75k point are achieved... and it is easy to do.

 

I expect that EC battle are almost "unfinishing" battle who ends when all enemy airfields are lost: destroyed or captured by enemy.

 

1) Now battle is ended when "something happnened' - there were a battle at the airport so I plan to use my bomber and hunt some frags.

Unfortunatelly battle was ended (75k points achieved).

 

2) EC mode is too short (ballance) - is finished with few hours instead announced few days,

 

3) Tank battles are too short - are ended after limit of time but not when all enemy foces are destroyed, 

 

[hr]

 

I know that the airplane maps are poor-detaled to the dedicated pams for GF, but maybe it is good idea to ability to take control over GF to players who leave the plane?

With no markers over tanks (who is player, who is AI) and order: eliminate all unit at ground on battle it can be quite good idea to help not only at the air but on ground too.

Of course, when battle is ended (no more enemy GF in region) player may be transfered to the airfield again

 

And Stalingrad map is not so poor detailed...

 

g7gSZQg.jpg

Edited by PL_Andrev
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  • 1 month later...

First of all I personally find this mode 10 times better than the classic RB matches we have currently. I'm fed up with the current Realistic Battles (which for me have 2 big problems that are "solved" in EC), so I hope the RB EC mode will again be playable in the near future and even be a permanent mode together with the classic RB mode (for people who like quick battle with premium or just fly their favorite plane right away) ... with improvements through update of course.

 

Of course some changes must be done, most issues have been pointed out by Rapitor or others but I will complete with this :
1) Remove the SP system because snowballing (in fact I think it’s also a problem in GF but I will not talk about this here), the team who make the most kills/assists (mainly) can respawn in better planes while preventing the losing team to do so. The timer system is good without time reductions.
 
2) Even with big maps like the ones I played on I think 32 vs 32 players is too much. The players (especially fighters) have a tendency to rush straight into each other's (for the kill) creating a permanent furball, or else they gather near the objectives (where the easy targets are) which are too few at the same time. That makes it impossible to pick a target and often force you to dive into the enemy planes and hope nobody catches up to you (like in AB). Therefore I think 24 vs 24 would be widely enough.
 
3) The team filling was weird because when too much people leave a game they’re not replaced before more than 30 minutes and thus you’re in a team of 5 against 12+ opponents, and it wasn’t a rare occurrence. And the replacement bots didn’t want to take off so they were just useless ground targets.
 
4) Also to help attackers and other easy targets, one solution would be to make the name of the enemy planes not visible on the markers at more than 4-5 km which would force the player to observe more, be more “attentive” and would make things easier for bombers … I even think about remove markers over 2-3 km from the player (they do not appear at all at more than a certain distance) but maybe it’s too extreme.
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  • 2 weeks later...

Loving the idea but its just a waste of time for now. Huge maps with small amount of players, low rp yield and no compatibility with some game rewards.

1. Run 1 ec at a time so that theres more players in a match. 2v2 even 5v5 matches are boring and number of players is crucial.

2. Allow ec kills to count for war bonds and plane skins. How is this not a thing? Some skins require kills on specific maps that we dont see in rb.

3. Playing regular rb for an hour gets me way more rb and sl. Making ec more worthwhile for spading and earning would attract more players. 

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Bots in EC tended to crash into the ground with extreme frequency during the EC RB event.

In addition, German AI aircraft were often labelled as enemies for the Germans and Allied AI aircraft labelled enemies for the Allies.

Edited by warrior412
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EC RB always ended "unexpectedly" and definitely NOT at 150000 points.

All of a sudden, the entire ennemy "health" bar goes empty (while it was 3/4 full a couple seconds before, just like ours) and game ends.

Not understood how that mechanic worked

 

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23 hours ago, PartizannBanditn said:

Loving the idea but its just a waste of time for now. Huge maps with small amount of players, low rp yield and no compatibility with some game rewards.

1. Run 1 ec at a time so that theres more players in a match. 2v2 even 5v5 matches are boring and number of players is crucial.

2. Allow ec kills to count for war bonds and plane skins. How is this not a thing? Some skins require kills on specific maps that we dont see in rb.

3. Playing regular rb for an hour gets me way more rb and sl. Making ec more worthwhile for spading and earning would attract more players. 

If u earn more in one hour regular RB than in EC you must have been extremely unlucky. Probably came into a match with only a few players.

11 hours ago, poiureza said:

EC RB always ended "unexpectedly" and definitely NOT at 150000 points.

All of a sudden, the entire ennemy "health" bar goes empty (while it was 3/4 full a couple seconds before, just like ours) and game ends.

Not understood how that mechanic worked

 

Matches don´t end at 150k, although it keeps telling you to reach 150k, in fact it was changed to 75k last test, if i remember correctly. EC is still in testing stage and it´s always worth it to follow the threads constantly to keep up with it´s progress. Most of the stated problems were mentioned over the last months already and some were fixed, some not.

 

 

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The last iteration of this test was very interesting and special in a few aspects.

At first, there were a lot of small games, with only a handfull players on the server - these were impressive nonetheless as a display of the AI's capabilities. I really have to say the Ai has improved by a big margin over the years - at the start of WT they could only be challenging due to their buffed stats. If you were able to catch them by speed or turnrate (oh these endless merry-go-round battles with bots back then - actually awful), they could not harm you. Currently they show off a big repertoire of maneuvers and strategical programming. Also I had to laugh at their willingness to go head-on, this is certainly well done to make them more similar to human players (not pilots!).

Unfortunately in the course of testing these early matches tended to get PvE pretty soon, once the majority of human players left, there was always someone going for a full 2h bot slaughter with no chance to ever see anybody joining that match again. Not really what the "Enduring Confrontation" promised to be, yet certainly a good source of income for some.

After this 'first phase' and the addition of the Kursk event, things started to get changed, to the point where there were NO Ai planes involved anymore and the server was filled by players alone. Resembling the previous tests a few weeks ago, these were more chaotic and more prone to furballing at a single spot with not much occuring elsewhere. While still allowing for strategical movement and rewarding, these were clearly lacking the vibrant feeling of action all around you. You either go for the furball or you go cruise alone.

 

Conclusion: I think a great way to stimulate several spots of action on the same battlefield is to have a good portion of these excellent bots in each team. They group up, do bombing runs with escorts, make patrols, create their own secondary furballs, go for attack missions. Newly joined players can get an idea of what to do, the bots provide intel and scouting, basically they flesh out the battlefield.

One could even go as far and display all players in visual range only with the plane marker, name only displayed in close range for friendlies.

The bots would not stick out from afar, being easier targets (or rather harmless attacks). This would give them even more tactical depth and importance in EC, while improving immersion.

 

Edited by Cyrant
refined bold text to be more precise
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I was one of those players farming bots to spade certain planes, such as the 109K4. 

Only in the mostly empty matches was I able to talk to the enemy team and actually call a truce vs other human players so we all can just farm bots. Twas quite fun and relaxing to progress.

The game devs need to include some sort of alternative mode to grind against bots for 25-50% of normal rewards with a daily upper cap per unit.

Edited by MH4UAstragon
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19 hours ago, Cyrant said:

-snip-

One could even go as far and display all players in visual range only with the Ai-plane marker diamond, names and plane model only displayed in close range for friendlies.

This way the bots wouldn't be sticking out from afar for being easier targets (or rather harmless attacks), which would give them even more tactical depth and importance.

 

I think this would be a great idea as I've also come to the conclusion that including bots makes for better battles than player-only battles

 

 

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10 hours ago, poiureza said:

 

I think this would be a great idea as I've also come to the conclusion that including bots makes for better battles than player-only battles

 

 

There is one question though: how to deal with chat 'spotting' which uses the player's name and plane model?

One way would be to still display it in chat, allowing to check for bots using the chat feature.

Another, more immersive way would be to omit the chat information about the player, only using the plane type, along with grid info and flashing it's icon on the map.

 

Edit (@mods?): gone a bit afk here possibly, should I put this in it's own suggestion thread to have a place?

 

 

Edited by Cyrant
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  • 4 weeks later...

Interesting: We were flying with a squadmate in this newest EC test and bombers. He111 x 2 went for Brit airfields. Together we dropped 16 x 250lbs bombs to the runway, hits were seen in bomb cam but NO registered hits. 
Earlier today the same problem came on with Ju88. 
But in Brit bombers, there's no problem. an someone explain this to me? 

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On 8/6/2016 at 7:21 PM, Zandmann said:

Interesting: We were flying with a squadmate in this newest EC test and bombers. He111 x 2 went for Brit airfields. Together we dropped 16 x 250lbs bombs to the runway, hits were seen in bomb cam but NO registered hits. 
Earlier today the same problem came on with Ju88. 
But in Brit bombers, there's no problem. an someone explain this to me? 

Actually I played British and we had the same problem in some games, the bomb would hit dead center of the runway, but would not register, I made a comment about it on the other thread. It did seem pretty random though and didn't  effect every game or every bomb run for that matter.

Edited by Badballie1
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  • 2 weeks later...

The worst about this event is that it had too few players like 5 in each side it need to have 15-20 on each side so players can cover bombers and intercept fighters.

 

Also tanks should not disappear from the battlefield when they win the ground battle...

 

If this event had like 32 vs 32 players with ground vehicles on that huge map but no ground tags it would be epic!

Edited by DeathmachinePT
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Also the fact that there were so many bots made players focus on fighting those bots than helping for example me as a bomber bomb the objectives :(

Edited by DeathmachinePT
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With the exception of this last weekend (Gamescom) we had three weeks of RB EC in a row and I've seen more improvement in just those three weeks than in all of the six months prior. Which is heartening.

(Disheartening was not running one this past weekend, presumably so it wouldn't detract from the gimmicky Gamescom AB event, even though in my opinion EC does a much better job of highlighting the potential of War Thunder for compelling, large scale, multi-theatre combat.)

 

So in respect to the previous week's RB EC, I really enjoyed having all those AI around. I still focused mainly on enemy players, but I liked that balance. Say for example I'm playing German and you were on the Russian team farming Hs-129's faster than my teammates were farming Pe-2's, that makes you a strategic target. I can help to win that battle by slowing you down... Overall I loved the introduction of strategy in that way, and I hope we see more of it, with some more advanced AI.

It had some flaws though. I think strategically the Russian teams should have been more aggressive, while the German team was really well suited to farming but often fell into the RB Climb, Climb, Climb meta instead. My reasoning is this: In an La-5 (and most Russian fighters) you can do amazing, fast damage to a small number of planes with your ammo load; so it's more efficient to kill players and protect the AI. In a Bf 109 F-4 with gun pods, or a Bf 110 C-4, or many other German aircraft you can do sustained damage to a larger number of enemy aircraft, so you've got a better loadout to win battles by farming.

I also saw more Russians than Germans bailing out when their ammo expired instead of landing to rearm. I really think the cooldowns need to be adjusted to try and avoid that... I understand why the big, slow bomber pilots do it, but fighter pilots doing that bleed their own team's tickets through their laziness and it's annoying.

On the issue of tickets, was it just me or did the strategic bombing targets seem mostly worthless for ticket scores? The amount that a successful target destruction would reduce the score was far, far less than could be achieved farming AI or ground targets for the same length of time, and it quickly became apparent that those camps/bases weren't worth defending... Airfield defense was critical, especially if the enemy started bombing your isolated/far away airfield, but strategic target defense just seemed pointless.

Enemy tanks spawing on friendly airfields has already been mentioned, but caused two issues that I haven't seen mentioned yet. Firstly, when a 'ground battle' would spawn under the coverage of an airfield, that battle was a guaranteed loss for the other team. Airfields have their sniper-AAA, which I don't really mind unless it's hitting me through terrain (yes that's still happening), but the airfields could basically harvest whole flights of AI attackers and any players silly enough to venture close. A battle like that would devastate the attacking side's ticket score in a really unfair way.
The other issue with tanks on airfields is you can't bomb them. I tried, first unknowing and the second time to test, and if you drop your bombs close enough to damage your own airfield you'd be kicked from the game. This favoured the Germans with their Hs-129's, because the Russians really needed to rely on rockets and bombs to kill medium tanks.

 

[edit]

And can we PLEASE have a T2/T3 UK+US 'v' Germany RB EC. I can't recall ever having one. Plenty of Germany 'v' Russia, an occasional US 'v' Japan which inevitably suffers from the lack of Japanese players, and that one Russia 'v' Japan which I didn't have a single spaded plane for.

Edited by MoarPye
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  • Stona changed the title to Enduring Confrontation
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