PantherAl

Tanks/Vehicles
New "German" Top Tier Light Tank: TAM / TH301

TAM/TH301   155 members have voted

  1. 1. Should the TAM/TH301 be introduced?

    • Yes - the TAM Only.
      14
    • Yes - The TH301 Only.
      29
    • Yes - Both the TAM and the TH301 as upgrade to the TAM
      107
    • No
      13
  2. 2. What BR do you see this being if it is introduced?

    • Tier V 7.3
      47
    • Tier V 7.7
      43
    • Tier V 8.0
      65
  3. 3. Does this belong in the German Tree?

    • Yes - It was designed and developed by Germany, In Germany.
      136
    • No - While the above is true, it was only used by Argentina, so doesn't belong in the German Tree.
      19

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129 posts in this topic

Been poking about a bit as more and more light tanks are getting added to the game for all the various sides.  One of the nations sorely lacking light tanks in Tier IV and Tier V, and desperately needing more Tier V options is Germany.

 

Alas, there really isn't any good Tier V options out there.   The RU-251 has been brought forward, but that is at best a high Tier IV or low Tier V light at best, perhaps around the 6.7 range. Not to mention it is just a prototype tank that hasn't seen any service at all.  Not a bad option, but perhaps not the best.

 

But there is an option for a high Tier V light for the German tree.  The TAM tank.  Yes, it is an Argentinian tank as far as service goes, but it was designed and developed by a German firm, who then added the Leopard1A4 FCS to it and offered it to the German Army as the TH301.  

 

Time wise, it is - if barely - within the 70's era that is apparently the top end of the time line, and better yet, is a simple tank: no composites, no fancy electronics, no smoothbores, or any of the other technology that Gaijin has said they will not add to the game.

 

 

ojigjm.jpg

 

The stats:

 

Power to Weight Ratio of 24.27

Weight of 31t and a Crew of 4.

L/W/H of 8.4m, 3.3m, 2.4m.

Max Road speed of 72kph with a road range of 600km.

750hp Engine with a 4 forward/4 reverse gearbox.

Fording Depth is 1.4m unprepared, 2.25 prepared, 4m with snorkel.

Armed with a L7A1 clone, coaxial 7.62 MG, optional Commanders 7.62 MG.

15 seconds to traverse 360 degrees, -7 to +18 degree gun depression/elevation.

50 rounds of main gun ammo - 20 of which are in the turret - and 6000 rounds of MG ammo.

 

Armour:

 

Frontal slope is at 72 degrees and is 50mm thick.  Sides are also 50mm thick, but only 32 degrees.  Turret side matches the side of the hull at 50mm and 32 degrees, as well as the frontal plate of the turret at 50mm thick, at the same slope.  Mantlet is unknown at this time, but from what I am seeing, equivalent level of protection is provided by it.  However, some sources are saying 35mm for the sides, but the majority seems to hew to the 50mm thick plate.  To help with crew protection after a fashion, do note that the engine is mounted in the front of the tank, as well as the transmission.

 

Time for some pics:

 

[spoiler]

TAM-2.jpg

 

tam01_43.jpg

 

And one with the hood up... you can see the massive lift mechanism needed to hing and lift a 50mm thick plate that size.

 

motor+del+TAM.jpg

 

 

And just because I know our Argentinian friends will be asking for this skin...

 

fb

 

[/spoiler]

 

As far as sources go, pretty much can only go off of what you find on the more reputable sites on the web as well as Jane's.  Jane's matches the majority of what has been said online about it, but as far as I know there are no book devoted to the TAM/TH301 to use as a primary source.

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Looks pretty cool. Definitely yes!
+1.
Also, what ammo would it fire? Same as the L7s (105mm) in-game?
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Yep -

 

For all intents it is a copy of the L7A3 from what I am reading. Basically, its a Leopard 1 with even less armour.  Or perhaps, imagine a Bulldog with a L7.

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Yep -

For all intents it is a copy of the L7A3 from what I am reading. Basically, its a Leopard 1 with even less armour. Or perhaps, imagine a Bulldog with a L7.

Wouldn't armour be better because it's at a better slope (neglible difference in actual MM of armour).
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It's a bit of a stretch to be honest so...well, I'm honestly not very sure about this.  Then again I don't play tanks often to begin with anyway (the only reason I enjoy Ground Forces is being able to fly CAS without handicapping my team, but, of course, Gaijin locks it behind a point requirement...and then of course you die before you can get enough points to use a plane in the first place).

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A little?  Sorta kinda.  None of the tech in the tank isn't already in the game. L7, the engine, nothing in itself is new to the game.   The time frame is pushing it, but they have said the 70's are game now in certain cases.

 

Besides, something like this is, in my opinion, needed for the German Top Tier.

 

With this, you can get a line up of the Original Leo in game, the upgraded version they said they are adding, the Gepard that they are looking at, and this.  A solid 7.7-8.0 top tier that makes Germans viable at that range compared to the broad spectrum that the Soviet tree has.

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Pulqui 2 as tank.

 

Nice  :salute:

a proper researched suggestion about an actual used tank design (of german origin)

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Pulqui 2 as tank.

 

Nice  :salute:

a proper researched suggestion about an actual used tank design (of german origin)

 

That's one of the reasons I think this is a better option (Or at least should be an option) than the RU-251.  It was made, it was put into service, and it isn't OP in any shape or fashion.

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Sure, I like this. Seems pretty nice/good. 

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In my opinion, there are a few issues with the implementation of this tank with the game being in it's current state:

 

One of the less important things. It would be an MBT, not a light tank (30 tons), it's name literally means "Argentine Medium Tank", as it was intended and used as the main armored fighting vehicle against tanks, not a scout or recon (although with it's mobility I guess it could fill that role as well).

That leads to the next point, its mobility. It is a faster, and more agile tank that the Leopard I (28 hp/t vs 19 hp/t,  75km/h vs 65km/h), featuring the same gun and while a bit worse, it's basically the same worthless armor against AT guns, and it is shorter, (practically as tall as a T-54). The only disadvantage is the gun depression, (7º vs 9º) but I guess with the gun pointing sideways it could match it (since the gun and the turret are the same) as the hull wouldn't get in the way.

 

It would be pretty much a better Leopard I, shadowing it in terms of what players would bring to battle.

 

Another thing to take into account, the modern FCS. It features good gun stabilization, laser rangefinder and ballistic computer, that yet no tank in game has. Also it fired late 70s ammo, namely 105mm APFSDS, among HEAT and HESH, etc.

 

To currently implement this tank in the game it would have to be dumbed down on its capabilities, and given older ammo, but still it would be just a better choice than the Leopard I (the main german 60s tank). Also the TAM wasn't purely german, the TH301 prototype was german but over 1000 modifications were made on it's way to become the TAM (2 axis stabilization among them) and both countries participated in the devolpment.

 

If this tank is to be implemented in the game, there should be other 70s tanks so it doesn't shadow the 60s tanks (unless it's undermodelled), and probably Tier VI / 9.0 BR.

 

Also there is the tree thing: I would like it to see in the International Tree, not so much in the German Tree, unless it is the TH301 prototype which was truly German indeed.

 

A little video if you want to see this tank in action :)

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eb6SoZGLlMU

Edited by SuperEtendard
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It's a perfect choice for a "light" tank that Germany could make use of. Currently, most tanks Germany faces at tier V are well armored and have decent mobility, fire rate and strong guns.

Only the Leo and to some extent the recent Jpz 4-5 can fit in that meta, but another vehicle of a similar type would benefit Germany as it suits its current playstyle of high mobility and strong guns in exchange for paper armour.

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Another thing to take into account, the modern FCS. It features good gun stabilization, laser rangefinder and ballistic computer, that yet no tank in game has. Also it fired late 70s ammo, namely 105mm APFSDS, among HEAT and HESH, etc.

 

70's ammo is a good point - putting in earlier stuff might be a way around it, but you are right that is an issue.  The rest I am not too worried about since the rangefinding mechanic is already in game, as well as stabilization is already getting added to late tanks as is.  Its pushing at already established mechanics yes, but not making new ones.

 

It's a perfect choice for a "light" tank that Germany could make use of. Currently, most tanks Germany faces at tier V are well armored and have decent mobility, fire rate and strong guns.

Only the Leo and to some extent the recent Jpz 4-5 can fit in that meta, but another vehicle of a similar type would benefit Germany as it suits its current playstyle of high mobility and strong guns in exchange for paper armour.

 

That's the basis for my logic.  Yes, its considered a Medium by Argentina, but at 30 tons I think it could also be considered an overweight light as well that fits very well into the German top tier meta of fast well armed, but weakly armoured tanks.

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Great looking tank!

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The production of this tank started in 1976....SO NO.....NO

 

*sigh* For...the last...****ing...time...

 

THERE'S NO LONGER A CUTOFF DATE!!!

 

How many times do people have to tell you that before you take a hint!?

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I cant believe with that kind of "problems" people are bugging around. Dafuq did you smoke?
I´ve read something like: Oh noes, it breaks the "light tank rule" and "the leo1 is just a shadow of this, it is needed to dumbed down"....then do so i want this ingame, in the german tree!

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Very good idea. This is one of the best choices to be implemented and looks like it would be a thrill to play with that mobility and gun. I just fear its going to take forever to see any new high tier germans.

 

The problem with this tank, IF intended to be added to the German research tree, would be that the "light tank tree" is based on the panzer 38 (or would it be 37? in short, Czech tanks), so this would either be a premium, or a exception to the light tank family rule

That sounds more like a made up problem. They could put it in almost anywhere or come up with new line. Even putting it after Hezer would be somewhat logical since it would continue the foreign & foreign influenced tanks line due to its use in Argentina.

Edited by Nuclear_Frog
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With reports from the Russian side, BVV is saying the RU251 is highly doubtful now.  This becomes an even better option to take the top tier light as the Argentinian Government has been shopping it around looking for buyers, so the info is out there I believe.

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the puzzle of what to do with vehicles designed/built by one country then used by another is a long-standing one, in many war games. in my opinion vehicles belong best with those who operated them, rather than their manufacturer.

 

consider the spahpanzer sp i c, it is quite light and was intended to be used by the correct nation before its project was cancelled and the prototypes stored away.

 

http://forum.warthunder.com/index.php?/topic/256606-sp%C3%A4hpanzer-sp-ic-light-tank-prototype-flakpanzer-gepard/

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I cant believe with that kind of "problems" people are bugging around. Dafuq did you smoke?
I´ve read something like: Oh noes, it breaks the "light tank rule" and "the leo1 is just a shadow of this, it is needed to dumbed down"....then do so i want this ingame, in the german tree!

 

I don't know what's your problem. I simply pointed out that a light tank that isn't truly German surprases the Leopard 1 in the same BR isn't a good idea. Everyone would be just driving TAMs.

 

IMO, if this tank is implemented as such, it should be at a higher BR than the Leopard 1 and face stronger opponents than 60s tanks we currently have in game/ are going to be added soon.

 

 

the puzzle of what to do with vehicles designed/built by one country then used by another is a long-standing one, in many war games. in my opinion vehicles belong best with those who operated them, rather than their manufacturer.

 

consider the spahpanzer sp i c, it is quite light and was intended to be used by the correct nation before its project was cancelled and the prototypes stored away.

 

http://forum.warthunder.com/index.php?/topic/256606-sp%C3%A4hpanzer-sp-ic-light-tank-prototype-flakpanzer-gepard/

 

Germany didn't produce the TAM, they just made the first prototype. The TAM was produced by Argentina.

Edited by SuperEtendard
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