Risuou

Submarines- Yay or nay?

285 posts in this topic

Subs won't work. The fastest sub, the i201, was slower than battleships and not to mention practically all ships had sonar so all it will take is a DD to sail right on top of you and spam depth charges. You can't even surface in subs because they had no armor at all.

 

What do you think of AI subs though?

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I feel like subs would be akin to the Heavy strategic bombers of the seas. Not entirely necessary for overall gameplay and if/when implemented they would range from unusable to incredibly overpowered on a patch by patch basis.

 

 

And despite the blatant disadvantages of submarines and difficulty to implement them, I would love to see them as they would make the game more dynamic. It would give Destroyers and smaller ships something to do other than trying to torpedo battleships (which will probably be a much harder task to do in WT then in WoWs due to the lack of cloaking devices and probably more realistic gun and damage mechanics) Heavy Cruisers and Battleships would be quite vulnerable to them if their scout planes and/or carrier's aircraft can not spot them from the air which further increase the need to have air superiority to try and keep your teams subs undetected.

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The inclusion of subs would be heavily dependent on the types of missions that were implemented. Historically, submarines were useless in fleet battles.

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I would say yes to submarines because:

 

1. they are slow so as an normal ship you could outrun them

2. they cant take hits at all (I think even 20mm canons could kill submarines that where on the surface)

    and deph charges are even more dangerous

3. planes can spot submarines from above (up to a deph of some meters)

4. Torpedos take some time to reload.

 

5.The only thing that is on the side of a sub is the suprise factor so that you can kill an an enemy ship without beeing seen but then you should get away.

 

 

 

But when they come Into the game I want:

1. deph charges on planes that could carry them.

 

2. sonobuoys for naval bombers to detect submarines.

 

3. late war acoustic torpedos. Like the MK24 from the USA (those torpedos killed subs like the Japanese I-400 near the end of the war)

 

4. more Naval planes (like the P-2 Neptune or sunderlands)

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[snip]

 

That's not actually the main concern. As mentioned before, the main concern is actually getting them in the battle, due to just how slow they are. Fix this, and a lot of other stuff will fall into place. 20 knots, while slow, should be doable as it is still a decent proportion of the speed of other ships in that they will be able to enter the battle if they travel towards it on the surface. On an open ocean map, however, this will be a problem. Which means points of ambush become necessary, but there is a problem with other ships if you add too many. 

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My main issue with them (beyond many others) is this; if there are no means of countering submarines left when the battle is mostly over (no aircraft available with depth charges, no destroyers/corvettes available, no cruisers with depth charges), how are the submarines going to be dealt with? What's to stop them just hiding at the bottom of the map and waiting out the round? What is everyone else meant to be doing whilst the submarine(s) hide(s) if they can't do anything to harm them?

 

Also how on earth are you going to persuade destroyer captains to either go and search for submarines or stick near larger ships and do a lot of nothing to protect them whilst they're being shot at by other ships? They could be off doing something such as putting their torpedoes to use (and earning SL/RP) rather than playing hide & seek with submarines which may be an absolute waste of their time. If the escort mentality worked then we'd currently see bombers being escorted frequently.

 

Then there's the whole too slow, not involved in battle fleets, weapons of opportunity etc.

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My main issue with them (beyond many others) is this; if there are no means of countering submarines left when the battle is mostly over (no aircraft available with depth charges, no destroyers/corvettes available, no cruisers with depth charges), how are the submarines going to be dealt with? What's to stop them just hiding at the bottom of the map and waiting out the round? What is everyone else meant to be doing whilst the submarine(s) hide(s) if they can't do anything to harm them?

 

Also how on earth are you going to persuade destroyer captains to either go and search for submarines or stick near larger ships and do a lot of nothing to protect them whilst they're being shot at by other ships? They could be off doing something such as putting their torpedoes to use (and earning SL/RP) rather than playing hide & seek with submarines which may be an absolute waste of their time. If the escort mentality worked then we'd currently see bombers being escorted frequently.

 

Then there's the whole too slow, not involved in battle fleets, weapons of opportunity etc.

 

Regarding your main issue, that part isn't too big of a deal. Meet the Hedgehog:

[spoiler]

 

WAMUS_Hedgehog_Netherlands_pic.jpg

[/spoiler]

 

There are a number of ASW options. For now it is limited to ships. If they were to somehow implement submarines, I imagine that depth charges would be added to the planes. Suffice to say, a submarine that manages to get spotted is in for a rough time. If they aren't spotted, searching for them would be simple enough. Sonar was primitive then, but it wasn't incapable. After sailing around the map, all it would take is one close call and the sonar should be able to pick it up. Just that it wouldn't be at a very great range. Then of course, there is logical deduction if players get together and talk about the last ship it sunk. Underwater, it can't get far from the last ship it sunk, above water and it is easily spotted. 

Regarding destroyers: I suspect that they don't like have enemy submarines alive and kicking any more than any of their allies. I suspect that would happen is that sub players that messed up would get spotted almost by accident by the destroyers. Considering that destroyers are well designed to kill subs, I suspect that once they know the subs position, it would be like a heavy and an AA gun in ground forces: free food. No player would turn that down. Of course, as skill rises things get interesting on both sides. Destroyer captains would likely become more aware of popular hiding spots for subs, and might check those areas first before engaging anything else. Other more skilled destroyer captains might use carriers or battleships as bait, and sink the enemy sub before they get the chance to cause any serious trouble. Sub pilots would counter that, and you have the natural progression of tactics that you see with any combination of two different classes of vehicles facing off. 

 

Of course, the whole thing assumes that we find a way to circumvent the speed limitations and do decide to use them for player vehicles. 

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Regarding your main issue, that part isn't too big of a deal. Meet the Hedgehog:

[spoiler]

 

WAMUS_Hedgehog_Netherlands_pic.jpg

[/spoiler]

 

There are a number of ASW options. For now it is limited to ships. If they were to somehow implement submarines, I imagine that depth charges would be added to the planes. Suffice to say, a submarine that manages to get spotted is in for a rough time. If they aren't spotted, searching for them would be simple enough. Sonar was primitive then, but it wasn't incapable. After sailing around the map, all it would take is one close call and the sonar should be able to pick it up. Just that it wouldn't be at a very great range. Then of course, there is logical deduction if players get together and talk about the last ship it sunk. Underwater, it can't get far from the last ship it sunk, above water and it is easily spotted. 

That's not what I said. What I said was what about when there [i]aren't[/i] any ASW-equipped ships left towards the end of a round. For example when there is a Queen Elizabeth-class battleship, a County-class cruiser and, say, a Leander-class left on the Royal Navy team, whilst on the opposing team are two submerged u-boats. None of those ships I've listed carry depth charges, hedgehog or squid. How are they going to counter the u-boats? Stalemate - u-boats won't surface, surface ships can't harm the u-boats. Who's going to wait it out until the end of the 60-minute long HB/FRB match first? Those surface ships can just steam away from the u-boats if they detect them, whilst if there was a limited oxygen supply mechanic so subs couldn't hide at the bottom of the sea for eternity, they could just sail off to a corner of the map away from the ships and surface when they have to before submerging again.

 

I can't see any change in player mentality that would send destroyer captains primarily after hidden submarines they need to detect with their ASDIC cabinets when they've a load of torpedo tubes ready to be shot off at big battleships they can see, which will probably provide a bigger reward than a submarine most likely would. If they came across a submarine they might attack it as a target of opportunity but I can see destroyers being used just as bombers are - full speed towards the targets, try and reach them and attack before being decimated. Cheap repair for the gain of damaging something bigger should equal a net profit.

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That's not what I said. What I said was what about when there aren't any ASW-equipped ships left towards the end of a round. For example when there is a Queen Elizabeth-class battleship, a County-class cruiser and, say, a Leander-class left on the Royal Navy team, whilst on the opposing team are two submerged u-boats. None of those ships I've listed carry depth charges, hedgehog or squid. How are they going to counter the u-boats? Stalemate - u-boats won't surface, surface ships can't harm the u-boats. Who's going to wait it out until the end of the 60-minute long HB/FRB match first? Those surface ships can just steam away from the u-boats if they detect them, whilst if there was a limited oxygen supply mechanic so subs couldn't hide at the bottom of the sea for eternity, they could just sail off to a corner of the map away from the ships and surface when they have to before submerging again.

 

I can't see any change in player mentality that would send destroyer captains primarily after hidden submarines they need to detect with their ASDIC cabinets when they've a load of torpedo tubes ready to be shot off at big battleships they can see, which will probably provide a bigger reward than a submarine most likely would. If they came across a submarine they might attack it as a target of opportunity but I can see destroyers being used just as bombers are - full speed towards the targets, try and reach them and attack before being decimated. Cheap repair for the gain of damaging something bigger should equal a net profit.

What is with the planes that bigger ships can carry?

when you make them playable And when they can carry depth charges (most of those planes could carry them)

you have something to kill the subs.

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A fair enough point, although that raises concerns about ships that did not carry aircraft.

 

I just think that if you want to play submarines then perhaps a game tailored to submarine gameplay might be the sensible, suitable option. This isn't Silent Hunter, Das Boot or Silent Service II. Do you really think Gaijin will be able to put in the resources to actually make submarine gameplay worthwhile whilst they're trying to make surface action gameplay worthwhile?

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That's not what I said. What I said was what about when there aren't any ASW-equipped ships left towards the end of a round. For example when there is a Queen Elizabeth-class battleship, a County-class cruiser and, say, a Leander-class left on the Royal Navy team, whilst on the opposing team are two submerged u-boats. None of those ships I've listed carry depth charges, hedgehog or squid. How are they going to counter the u-boats? Stalemate - u-boats won't surface, surface ships can't harm the u-boats. Who's going to wait it out until the end of the 60-minute long HB/FRB match first? Those surface ships can just steam away from the u-boats if they detect them, whilst if there was a limited oxygen supply mechanic so subs couldn't hide at the bottom of the sea for eternity, they could just sail off to a corner of the map away from the ships and surface when they have to before submerging again.

 

I can't see any change in player mentality that would send destroyer captains primarily after hidden submarines they need to detect with their ASDIC cabinets when they've a load of torpedo tubes ready to be shot off at big battleships they can see, which will probably provide a bigger reward than a submarine most likely would. If they came across a submarine they might attack it as a target of opportunity but I can see destroyers being used just as bombers are - full speed towards the targets, try and reach them and attack before being decimated. Cheap repair for the gain of damaging something bigger should equal a net profit.

 

Sorry about that, but I think you have made your point abundantly clear now. 

I don't see destroyers going primarily after destroyers either, that said I think most players will have their "checkpoints," for lack of a better word, where they have come to expect submarines, just as in ground forces there are certain areas where we often suspect TDs will try to hide. I don't see destroyers doing much midgame subhunting, but I think right off the bat you will probably see a number of them heading to areas where subs are commonly sighted, and if they are confident enough might even blindfire their weapons in the area. Of course, if a submarine is left on one side and a destroyer left on the other, we will see some late-game subhunting as well. 

 

A fair enough point, although that raises concerns about ships that did not carry aircraft.

 

I just think that if you want to play submarines then perhaps a game tailored to submarine gameplay might be the sensible, suitable option. This isn't Silent Hunter, Das Boot or Silent Service II. Do you really think Gaijin will be able to put in the resources to actually make submarine gameplay worthwhile whilst they're trying to make surface action gameplay worthwhile?

 

Considering that Gaijin wants to eventually mix air, land, and sea together, I suspect that players will be able to fly land-based aircraft after losing their ship(s). What penalties this might carry who knows, I hope that at the very least the land bases are a very long ways away. Hopefully every nation will eventually get patrol floats, the US and Japan already have theirs and they will be the first ones, so being floats will be a huge advantage, especially if they can resupply at ship spawn (which is something that I intend to suggest when we get closer to naval battles). Idk if land-based aircraft were ever equipped with ASW, but I would imagine that at least the US and Japan would do this occasionally, as island warfare would involve some sub hunting, and land based aircraft were often launched from islands. 

Like I said, I doubt this will work largely on the basis of the speed difference. I'm not particularly worried about the rest, though. Though I really hope that subs can be implemented as AI, or at least pieces on a board. 

Edited by starkwolf
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Well, if anyone is interested, I am creating a document that has a feasible implementation of submarines. I think that I'll be finished at around 4:00 ET.

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Sorry about that, but I think you have made your point abundantly clear now. 

I don't see destroyers going primarily after destroyers either, that said I think most players will have their "checkpoints," for lack of a better word, where they have come to expect submarines, just as in ground forces there are certain areas where we often suspect TDs will try to hide. I don't see destroyers doing much midgame subhunting, but I think right off the bat you will probably see a number of them heading to areas where subs are commonly sighted, and if they are confident enough might even blindfire their weapons in the area. Of course, if a submarine is left on one side and a destroyer left on the other, we will see some late-game subhunting as well. 

 

 

Considering that Gaijin wants to eventually mix air, land, and sea together, I suspect that players will be able to fly land-based aircraft after losing their ship(s). What penalties this might carry who knows, I hope that at the very least the land bases are a very long ways away. Hopefully every nation will eventually get patrol floats, the US and Japan already have theirs and they will be the first ones, so being floats will be a huge advantage, especially if they can resupply at ship spawn (which is something that I intend to suggest when we get closer to naval battles). Idk if land-based aircraft were ever equipped with ASW, but I would imagine that at least the US and Japan would do this occasionally, as island warfare would involve some sub hunting, and land based aircraft were often launched from islands. 

Like I said, I doubt this will work largely on the basis of the speed difference. I'm not particularly worried about the rest, though. Though I really hope that subs can be implemented as AI, or at least pieces on a board. 

 

Again, the Type XXI "Elektroboote" could go around 17.2 knots as its top speed. That's fast enough to close in and destroy a battleship that is preoccupied with long-range fire from other battleships.

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There we are, finally finished. If anyone would like to add onto this, like a list of crewmen allocation per room,... feel free.

 

General Rules for Submarines-

  1. Damage is module-based.

  2. Modules take damage from being penetrated by shells, fire damage, flooding, or explosive force. Damage is less severe than disablement.

  3. Only the modules penetrated by a shell, burnt, flooded, or affected by explosive force are damaged. (EG: The props do not take damage from a shell that penetrates the submarine cross-ways at the bow.)

  4. Damage reduces module-effectiveness, while disablement destroys the module and renders it inoperable.

  5. Some modules are directly influenced by others (for example, all electrical systems are supported by the electrical room and batteries, and thus are disabled if the electrical room is. However, they do not have to be repaired along with the electrical room unless they are also damaged).

  6. A submarine CAN survive hitting the sea-floor, providing that it is not below its crush-depth and the submarine does not hit it too hard. A seafloor collision is treated as a collision, and only the modules that are hit take damage.

  7. If the hull is breached underwater, the submarine instantly starts to flood, and can only be saved by damage-control efforts.

  8. Submarines automatically start with damage-control abilities. These can be improved via upgrades or crew skills.

  9. If a submarine is trapped on the bottom and most of its crew are dead, it is treated as combat-ineffective.

  10. Flooding automatically extinguishes fires.

  11. Bulkheads are automatic. Removal of flooding isn’t, and requires that the submarine be surfaced.

  12. There are three kinds of damage: damage, disabling, and destruction. Destruction is the worst.

Ways to KILL a Submarine:

  1. Flood it to death- Breaching the hull in multiple places or destroying the conning tower will cause the submarine to flood until it destroys enough modules or crewmen to render it ineffective. A single flooding incident will not sink the submarine due to the presence of watertight bulkheads (except if the conning tower is destroyed).

  2. Burn it- Fire is lethal on submarines, more than on any other class of ship. Setting the sub on fire will destroy it relatively quickly if it is submerged.

  3. Magazine/Torpedo-Storage Area Explosion- Functions like an ammo-rack explosion. There is no saving against this.

  4. Crew Killing- This is much harder than in GF, because the sub is submerged, and because there are more crewmen to kill. However, if enough crewmen are killed, then the submarine is destroyed. A method of doing this is to destroy the air-tanks, which disables the oxygen tanks.

  5. Blow it away- A surfaced sub can be sunk/destroyed with direct fire like any other warship.

  6. Ram it- Submarines are vulnerable to being rammed while surfacing or diving. A quick-enough ram will seal their fate, but watch out, because it might send your ship to a watery grave as well.

  7. Keep it submerged: A submarine can only last so long underwater before its oxygen gives out.


Ways a submarine can die

  • Loss of crew to enemy action

  • Magazine explosion

  • Excessive Flooding

  • Fire

  • Asphyxiation- a submarine can only hold so much air. A sub that remains underwater too long will have its crew slowly die from asphyxiation.



Submarine modules and negative effects-

 Torpedoes- The torpedoes themselves cannot be damaged (not the ones in the tubes, anyway), but the storage areas can. A destroyed torpedo storage area functions like a destroyed ammo-rack- it may explode, instantly destroying the submarine, or it may just destroy ammunition. Torpedo Storage areas follow the same rules as ammo racks in GF. A damaged Torpedo Storage Area is considered to have lost ammunition or merely be more likely to explode upon the next hit (depending on the severity).

 SONAR/RADAR scopes- The scopes can be disabled by destroying the radio room, the conning tower, the electrical room, or by penetrating the SONAR/RADAR equipment room and inflicting critical damage. Disabled scopes do not function and must be repaired. There is a tiny chance that critically-damaged electrical equipment may catch fire. Damaged Scopes may be less accurate or may become fuzzy and experience interference.

 Christmas Tree (if historically accurate)- The Christmas Tree cannot be disabled.

 Dive controllers and Ballast Tanks- The Ballast tanks can be disabled by destroying the Ballast Tanks or the Compressed Air Tanks. While surfaced, a submarine with disabled Ballast tanks cannot dive until repaired, and may start to list and/or sink depending on the number of ballast tanks destroyed. Underwater, a submarine with disabled ballast tanks will lose buoyancy control and/or sink. It will become impossible to surface, and the sub must repair or it will dive to the bottom or below its crush depth. If a sub dives below its crush depth, it begins to suffer hull damage. If it goes too far or remains too long, it will be destroyed. Merely damaging the ballast tanks will increase the dive time and make the submarine list or pitch and become unstable.

 Deck Guns- The deck guns can be disabled by shooting their emplacements, much like in GF. Deck Gun Magazines function like ammo racks.

 Periscopes- Periscopes are hard to damage by themselves. They automatically are disabled if the conning tower is, and also can be rendered useless by machine-gun fire that hits the scopes directly. Disabled scopes do not work, and may allow water to flow in if submerged. Damaged scopes may show cracks, but are otherwise unaffected.

 Snorkel: The snorkel is incredibly difficult to hit, but, if it is disabled, the diesel engines stop working, and the submarine must either surface or switch to electric engines. A damaged snorkel may have no effect (green), or may slow the ship (orange/red).

 Flak guns-  The Flak Guns can be damaged/disabled by hitting them or their magazines.

 Diesel Engines- The Diesel Engines are used on the surface and are powerful, making the submarine maneuverable. They can also be used when the sub is partially submerged through the snorkel. When disabled, the submarine must switch to electric engines (automatic). It may dive if the player so wishes, and diving is generally recommended. The engines also may catch fire if disabled by shells, requiring damage-control. A damaged engine is less-effective and may leak fuel.

 Battery Engines- The electric engines are used when the submarine has submerged to attack-depth or below. These engines are less powerful and depend on battery life, but do not poison the air and can run underwater. The battery engines can be disabled if the batteries or the engines themselves are destroyed. Disabled engines do not function. Damaged engines are less effective.

 Oxygen tanks/scrubbers- The Oxygen tanks/scrubbers are life support systems. They can be disabled, but it is extremely difficult. They can only be disabled if all of the air tanks are disabled. They can be rendered less effective if the electrical room is disabled. If the oxygen tanks are disabled, then any submarine not on the surface will have a limited amount of time to get there before the crew asphyxiates, which kills the submarine instantly.

 Diving Planers - The Diving planers help with diving. They are extremely difficult to destroy, and can only be disabled by a direct hit from a shell. A disabled planer makes it much more difficult to dive, increasing the dive time significantly. They are usually located on the bow of the submarine.

The Electrical Room- This room houses most of the electronic equipment of a submarine. Disabling this room will automatically damage/disable other modules [see descriptions], and may cause a fire. Damaging this room will lessen the effectiveness of all of the modules reliant on this room.

The Conning Tower/Bridger- Like the bridge of a surface ship, the conning tower and the bridge are the two bona-fide most important parts of a submarine. If the conning tower is disabled, the ship automatically starts to flood, and if the bridge is disabled, the submarine becomes unresponsive for about a minute until more crew can take the place of those killed. If either are destroyed, the submarine itself is instantly destroyed. If the conning tower is destroyed, the submarine floods to death extremely quickly. There is little time to deploy lifeboats before the submarine slips below the waves. If the bridge is destroyed, the submarine loses the ability to steer, read SONAR, control speed,... The bridge is too critical to lose.


Hypothetical Type I U-boat upgrades-

 Tier I-

  • Main Body Repair: Smoothing of the Main Body decreases drag and diving time and slightly increases speed (Mobility)

  • Improved Propellers: Replacement of worn drive shafts, gears, propeller shafts, and blades slightly increases speed and mobility (Mobility)

  • Improved Radiator: Replacement of valves and piping increases engine efficiency and decreases the rate of overheat (Mobility)

  • Frame Repair: Repairs or replacement of the frame materials increases the total stress load limitations and hull strength, allowing slightly deeper dives and slightly decreasing the damage received from depth charges or bombs. For some vessels, this means that the entire frame is replaced with an undamaged frame (Survivability)

  • Improved Scopes: New or improved SONAR mechanisms, as well as improved displays increase both the accuracy of the scopes and the user-friendliness of the interface (Firepower)

  • Improved Periscopes: Replacement and cleaning of cracked and dirty optics improves visibility through the attack periscope(Firepower)


 Tier II

  • Filters: Replacement of worn and clogged mechanisms increases engine efficiency and slightly increases oxygen time (Mobility)

  • Alternator Repair: Replacement of worn mechanisms and burnt-out cable increases the rate at which the battery charges (Mobility)

  • Battery Repair (requires Alternator Repair): Replacement of old and leaky batteries improves their ability to hold a charge and power output (Mobility)

  • Ballast Valve Repair: Replacement of broken, faulty, or gummed-up seals improves the ship's water-tightness and slightly decreases diving time (Mobility)

  • Hatch Repair: Replacements of the seals around the hatches and the hatches themselves decreases their susceptibility to shell penetration and slightly increases their air-tightness (Survivability)

  • New Damage-Control Equipment: New equipment for the fighting of fires and flooding increases the speed and effectiveness of damage control (Survivability)

  • Improved Torpedoes: Replacement of old warheads, worn striking and propeller mechanisms as well as tailfin and main-body smoothing increases torpedo range, speed, damage consistency, and accuracy (Firepower)

  • Offensive Torpedo Loadout: Allows for access to various different torpedoes (EG: torpedo-mine TMA)

  • Deck-Gun Elevation Mechanism: Re-alignment of the elevation mechanism eliminates differences between the crosshairs and the gun barrel (Firepower)

  • Deck-Gun Drives: Lubrication and repair of the drive motors and ring increases the speed of gun-traverse (Firepower)

  • New 20mm Flak: Replacement of worn and broken gun parts increases the effectiveness of Anti-Aircraft fire (Firepower)

Tier III-

  • New Electric Motors- Replacement of the electric motors with newer versions increases motor power and improves speed while submerged (Mobility)

  • New Diesel Engines- Replacement of old, inefficient diesel engines yields greater power at snorkel depth and on the surface, increasing speed, engine durability, and decreasing fuel consumption. It also makes quick-dives and crash-dives slightly quicker (Mobility)

  • New Christmas Tree: Recalibration and replacement of hull valves and the display system eliminates hull valve errors and increases air-tightness and diving speed (Mobility)

  • New Oxygen Scrubbers: Replacement of old filters and scrubbers increases the air supply substantially (Survivability)

  • Additional Hull Armor: The installation of additional armor plates reinforces the hull and conning tower and increases the maximum dive depth, but slightly decreases speed underwater (Survivability)

  • Improved Communications Array: More powerful Radio equipment allows for allied destroyers to identify your vessel (Survivability)

  • Offensive 20mm Flak: Allows for the various special flak belts (Firepower)

  • Offensive 105mm Deck-Gun: Allows for the various deck-gun shell types (Firepower)

  • Air Support: Allows for the vessel to request air strikes while surfaced


Submarine Strengths:

Hard to detect

Powerful torpedoes

Difficult to hit while submerged/partially surfaced


Submarine Weaknesses:

Vulnerable to Depth Charges and large bombs

Vulnerable while surfaced

Rarely able to communicate with land structures (no ability for MM?)

Limited Optics, that is, relied mostly on SONAR and periscopes to see

Limited Radio, may be susceptible to friendly-fire while submerged

Torpedoes are relatively inaccurate and may be duds

Limited Depth



German Submarine Tech Tree (Example)


Tier 1

  • Seehund midget submarine (reserve/dirt cheap)

  • Type I-A submarine (requires purchase of Seehund)

Tier 2

  • Type II-B Submarine (requires purchase of Type I-A)

  • Type II-C Submarine (requires previous)

  • (Premium vessel) Type IID Submarine

Tier 3

  • Type VII-A Submarine (requires purchase of Type II-C)

  • Type VII-B Submarine (requires previous)

  • Type VII-C Submarine (requires previous)

  • Type VIIC/42 Submarine (requires previous)

  • Type VII-C “Flak Trap” Anti-Air Submarine

  • (Premium Vessel) Type VII-C/41 Submarine

Tier 4

  • Type IX-A (Requires Type VIIC/42)

  • Type IX-B (Requires previous)

  • Type IX-C (Requires Previous)

  • (Premium Vessel) Type IX-C/40

  • Type IX-D (Requires Type IX-C)

Tier V

  • Type XXI Submarine (Requires Type IX-D)


Submarines-

  Each torpedo tube reloads independently

In AB, the player gets a line showing the trajectory of the torpedo, with a cross to mark its minimum range, and one to mark its maximum range. The MM is replaced by the Scopes

In RB, the Player gets an aiming indicator of some sort (like the circle in tanks) showing where their torpedo is pointed towards. The MM is replaced by the Scopes

In SB, the Player gets the aiming indicator, but must use a commander’s view (surface only), periscope view, attack periscope view (only available on certain ships), or scopes view that also shows the christmas tree. The player also gets an MM, but targets do not show up on it (just like sim tanks), even if spotted.

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I would say yes to submarines because:

[...]

2. they cant take hits at all (I think even 20mm canons could kill submarines that where on the surface)

    and deph charges are even more dangerous

[...]

Submarines could take quite a lot of hits, actually, thanks to their watertight bulkheads. 20mm cannons would be completely ineffective, partially due to the low-ride of the submarine while surfaced, and because submarines were armoured. Their armour was designed to repel some naval-gun shells, which are far, far more powerful than your 20mm flak gun. Also, submarines are BIG compared to 20mm shells. There's a lot you have to destroy with those shells. It's like killing a Pz. IV L with a Pz. I C.

 

The reason that the Kv-2 cannot sink warships is because it fires a 152 (6in) howitzer, not a naval-cannon. Naval-cannons had much higher velocity, much more damage, and shot either AP or HE, meaning that they could actually penetrate other ships. Therefore, AA and tank-cannons are largely ineffective against ships because of their [the ships'] superior armour. Thus, a 20mm cannon couldn't kill a submarine (or, at least, it took a lot of them to do it.)

Edited by peregrine22
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Again, the Type XXI "Elektroboote" could go around 17.2 knots as its top speed. That's fast enough to close in and destroy a battleship that is preoccupied with long-range fire from other battleships.

 

Could it do that underwater? Above water, it would be quite vulnerable. If that battleship has any other ships near it at all, without targets, the submarine will likely be the next target if it is on the surface. I don't have a problem with sub surface speeds. One important question is how quickly they submerge, which I believe is very slow. If they could submerge fast enough, there shouldn't be an issue. If it is open map, I doubt that the general player base would be skilled enough to make subs work, but with a small number of ambush points, and fast submergence, it could be good enough. 

 

To use groundforces as an example again, consider that every tank has some sort of defense on the assumption that the target it is attacking might not be the only target it is fighting. For a TD with heavy frontal armor, the idea is to fire from a good distance away, such that any tank that engages you will have to penetrate the frontal armor. If you get flanked, however, you are in trouble. For a light tank, your speed can lead other tanks trying to kill you to miss their shots entirely, buying you time to kill them one at a time. Medium tanks are kindof halfway in between, and heavies are a lot like TDs, except that it is safer to get closer. 

 

If a submarine is expected to engage one target, while surfaced, under the assumption that there are no enemy ships otherwise occupied, that probably won't be enough to make them viable. If it can get into position while most enemies are distracted, then submerge, it would be extremely risky, but players with a knack for psychoanalyzing their enemies might be able to get away with some impressive kills if they can submerge fast enough, which I am pretty sure they cannot. 

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Could it do that underwater?

Yes. I have multiple sources for this, and they all concur. The funny thing is that it has a slower surface speed than its submerged speed.

 

http://www.uboataces.com/uboat-type-xxi.shtml

Top speed
Surfaced 15.7 knots
Submerged 17.2 knots
 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Type_XXI_submarine

15.6 knots (28.9 km/h; 18.0 mph) surfaced
17.2 knots (31.9 km/h; 19.8 mph) submerged[1]
6.1 knots (11.3 km/h; 7.0 mph) (silent running motors)

 

http://www.uboat.net/types/xxi.htm

Speed (knots): 15,6 (sf) 17,2 (sm)
(sf = surfaced, sm = submerged)

 

http://www.militaryfactory.com/ships/detail.asp?ship_id=Type-XXI-Uboat

Machinery: 2 x MAN M6V40/46KBB supercharged 6-cylinder engines producing 4,000ps and 2 x SSW GU365/30 double acting electric motors at 5,000ps with 2 x SSW GV232/28 silent running electric motors at 226ps.

Surface Speed: 16 kts (18 mph)
Submerged Speed: 17 kts (20 mph)

 

And the Wikipedia article cited the following:

Gröner, Erich (1985). U-Boote, Hilfskreuzer, Minenschiffe, Netzleger, Sperrbrecher. Die deutschen Kriegsschiffe 1815–1945 (in German) III (Koblenz: Bernard & Graefe). ISBN 3-7637-4802-4.

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Yes. I have multiple sources for this, and they all concur. The funny thing is that it has a slower surface speed than its submerged speed.

 

Good to know, and glad to hear it! Now, if we can find at least one comparable sub for each faction, we might have a case (otherwise, balancing could still be quite a mess). 

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Good to know, and glad to hear it! Now, if we can find at least one comparable sub for each faction, we might have a case (otherwise, balancing could still be quite a mess). 

Okay, I'll do some research, although it will be a little slow. I'm going to be away from WiFi for a while as I work. This may be a problem, though, because the Elektroboote was fairly revolutionary (one source compared it to the advent of the nuclear submarine).

 

 

Oh, and the Type VIIB had a speed of 8 knots while submerged, not good, but probably not entirely hopeless. This is comprable to most of the Japanese submarines.

 

The British seem to do around 9 or 10 knots (10 belonging to the S class and the Unsparing). The fastest that I've found seems to be the L class (midget) at 10.5 knots.

 

The US also seems to top-out at 9 knots. The USS Sailfish, coincidentally, could do 8.75, but that was enough for it to do several attacks on enemy ships, and to sink many ships, including what was thought to be a carrier.
 

Edited by peregrine22
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Okay, I'll do some research, although it will be a little slow. I'm going to be away from WiFi for a while as I work. This may be a problem, though, because the Elektroboote was fairly revolutionary (one source compared it to the advent of the nuclear submarine).

 

 

Oh, and the Type VIIB had a speed of 8 knots while submerged, not good, but probably not entirely hopeless. This is comprable to the Kadai V class (Japanese, with a submerged speed of 8.2 knots). The Japanese B-1 could also do only
 

 

Not a problem. I appreciate your devotion to your cause, hopefully soon to be our cause. 

In regards to the Type VIIB, I have to say 8 knots pretty likely won't cut it. If you spawned it a good deal ahead of the other ships, it would still take too long to arrive at the battle, or would get spotted above water. Now, hypothetically I suppose an extremely skilled player could be above water to get close enough, and then judging by when ships usually show up time a good submergence. However, that would be too few WT players, and the sub as a whole would just be a meaningless development that would cost Gaijin a great deal, without any noteworthy return. 

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Not a problem. I appreciate your devotion to your cause, hopefully soon to be our cause. 

In regards to the Type VIIB, I have to say 8 knots pretty likely won't cut it. If you spawned it a good deal ahead of the other ships, it would still take too long to arrive at the battle, or would get spotted above water. Now, hypothetically I suppose an extremely skilled player could be above water to get close enough, and then judging by when ships usually show up time a good submergence. However, that would be too few WT players, and the sub as a whole would just be a meaningless development that would cost Gaijin a great deal, without any noteworthy return. 

Yeah. It's sad that only Germany really had the idea for a completely electric submarine.

 

Oh, wait. This game goes into Cold War, right, which is why they have the jets. I'll start looking into Korean-age subs.

Edited by peregrine22
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Not a problem. I appreciate your devotion to your cause, hopefully soon to be our cause. 

In regards to the Type VIIB, I have to say 8 knots pretty likely won't cut it. If you spawned it a good deal ahead of the other ships, it would still take too long to arrive at the battle, or would get spotted above water. Now, hypothetically I suppose an extremely skilled player could be above water to get close enough, and then judging by when ships usually show up time a good submergence. However, that would be too few WT players, and the sub as a whole would just be a meaningless development that would cost Gaijin a great deal, without any noteworthy return. 

 

Bingo! The USS Seawolf, which entered production before the end of the Korean War, could go 19 knots while submerged. And the USS Nautilus could go ~13 while submerged (covering ~2213 km in less than 90 hours while submerged).

 

Oh, and the USS Tunny was converted to use Regulus missiles on May 8, 1953, a few months before the Korean War ended. It could still only go 9 knots while submerged, though.

 

Unfortunately, the Brits were a little late to get into the nuclear submarine business. The Porpoise Class (1956) could do 17 while submerged, about as good as the Type XXI. (Unfortunately, the Brits rather derped around with the idea that they could make a sub that would drop nuclear mines.)

 

Germans don't do anything until the 1960s.

 

I think that I'll get to the Russians tomorrow.

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Bingo! The USS Seawolf, which entered production before the end of the Korean War, could go 19 knots while submerged. And the USS Nautilus could go ~13 while submerged (covering ~2213 km in less than 90 hours while submerged).

 

Oh, and the USS Tunny was converted to use Regulus missiles on May 8, 1953, a few months before the Korean War ended. It could still only go 9 knots while submerged, though.

 

Unfortunately, the Brits were a little late to get into the nuclear submarine business. The Porpoise Class (1956) could do 17 while submerged, about as good as the Type XXI. (Unfortunately, the Brits rather derped around with the idea that they could make a sub that would drop nuclear mines.)

 

Germans don't do anything until the 1960s.

 

I think that I'll get to the Russians tomorrow.

 

So we're talking T5 subs then? Would be a while to wait, but if we got into the extremely early Korean subs I don't think too many people would have a problem with that. After all, we have Korean War planes, so it is only fair that navies stretch as far. I doubt, however, that we will be able to get anything beyond Korean era. That is pretty much where T5 ends. 

 

But, enough rambling about what I think we both already know. Point being I was kindof surprised to hear about the fact that we are getting into nuclear subs, but if it is Korean era I suppose we should be good. 

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i just posted a thread with an idea how they may be able to do this and keep it balanced...ideas would be appreciated. 

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