Risuou

Submarines- Yay or nay?

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Okay, with naval forces coming (inevitably), pretty much all classes (albeit destroyer escorts, probably)  will be implemented into the game. That begs the question- will submarines have an effect in the game?

 

But first off, let's clear off the most concerning things about submarines.

 

First off, subs are slow vessels. Let's take the very well known German Type VII U-boot for example. On the surface, they managed only around ~18 knots. Submerged, a Type VII could get about ~8 knots. They would not be necessarily action paced vessels to command. That explains why they're so vulnerable to watercraft like DDs, DEs, and minelayers.

Only the most nimble, like midget subs, could get past an infested harbor of mines. FUTURE TIP: Your worst enemy will be destroyers and the Abdiel-class minelayer from the Royal Navy, averaging 39.71 knots.

 

'But muh stealth and concealment!' True, but most vessels had sonar and recon planes to detect submarines before they were a threat. Holy hell, this list is getting more and more worse for people who want subs, like me. This one's a double whammy, taking care of the 'seaplanes are useless' notion. Don't forget, most seaplanes could also carry depth charges. FUTURE TIP: If you wanna stay alive, stay at the deep end of the water.

 

For the advantages, there's a lot.

 

Submarines are very stealthy. (No ****, Sherlock...) They're meant to be undetectable and if they bypass your destroyers and recon planes, you're in a ton of trouble. Japanese subs in particular, like the Type B class subs, could carry variants of the legendary Type 93 torpedo, which for subs was called the Type 95, which was down-scaled from 61cm to 53.3cm. Type B1 subs can carry 17 torpedoes, but have 6 tubes pointed forward. FUTURE TIP- Focus shots- you're practically an underwater sniper.

 

 

Midget subs. These things will haunt captains and admirals alike- if they get past you. 

Let's take an Atlantic example, the German Seehund, or Type XXVII midget sub, the Seehund.

Seehund is very slow, but can man a crew of only two, and is shorter than some fighter aircraft.

However, Seehund, like most midget subs, can only carry two torpedoes, and in this case, they're external, but of the G7e type torpedo, what the Germans used to slaughter entire fleets with. Set aside, you're the most nimble subs, and can glide through minefields with ease. But be careful, with no AA armament, you're gonna not want to surface.

FUTURE TIP- Midget sub captains, be wary of aircraft, and make your shots count.

 

'Muh I-400 class with Seirans-' Oh boy.

The I-400 or Sen-toku class of Japanese submarines, along with the Type AM submarines, were built and used as underwater aircraft carriers for the short-lived M6A1 Seiran, a monowing seaplane that could carry a Type 91 torpedo, two 250kg bombs, or an 850kg bomb. The I-400 could carry three, and the Type AM could manage two.

However, there is one drawback to being an SSV.

The I-400 class and Type AM class were some (AM) and the largest (I-400) class of subs on Earth before nuclear subs arrived on the scene. You're going to want to use your torpedoes a lot, Shioi/Iona captains. You got 8 53.3cm torp tubes in the forward section, and can do some serious damage with that alone. AM captains, you got 6 torps in the front, too.

FUTURE TIP- If you wanna use these subs, steer clear of anything with ASW. Your best bet is to send a few torps out into the enemy fleet, and finish whatever's left with your Seirans.

 

 

Well, that's all I can basically think of today. Tell me what you think.

 

Also, discuss subs and their probability in-game below, and their effectiveness.

Edited by IJN_Shinano

Pacifica (Posted )

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Er... I don't think that would be viable. Inner detail isn't something I really thought of, I'm gonna leave that to the Silent Hunter series.

 

Also, I need help creating sub trees.

 

 

v

 

 

This is what I got so far.

 

Kriegsmarine U-Boot Flotte

 

Type IIA/B/C/D sub (1934)- tier I vessel. Starter for sub captains.*

 

Type VIIA/B- tier I vessel(s).

 

Type VIIC- 'U-Flak'. Flak submarine, Tier I premium sub.

 

Type VIID- Minelayer sub. Tier I premium sub.

 

 

 

Type IXA/B/C/D (they're all the same thing, some just had more fuel)- Tier II subs.

 

Type X sub- used as long range minelayers. Limited production. Saw service in IJN. Tier II premium.

 

Type XVII sub- coastal sub with some sort of advanced propulsion system. Tier II premium.

 

Biber midget sub. Tier II sub.

 

Delphin midges sub. Tier II premium subby,

 

Type XXVIIA 'Hecht' midget sub. Tier II midget sub.

 

 

 

 

Type XXI submarine- first electric U-boats. Tier III sub.

 

Type XXVII 'Seehund' midget sub. Tier III sub.

 

 

 

Molch- tier IV midget sub.

 

Type XXIII sub- highly advanced small coastal elektroboot. (Electric subs.) Tier lV sub.

 

 

Type XXV sub- ocean going electric U-Boat. Never constructed, but there's not a whole lot of tier V material. Tier V sub.

 

Type XXVI sub- most advanced German sub. Ditto to Type XXV.

Edited by IJN_Shinano
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nay, they said Submarines will be op, and it will be unbalanced.

 

sounds like the lazy way out of balancing, knowing how skilled they are currently with balancing you can see why they come to that conclusion.

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sounds like the lazy way out of balancing, knowing how skilled they are currently with balancing you can see why they come to that conclusion.

not say that, only they said submarines will be hard to balance

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I wouldnt count Subs out entirely... once ships are released they can always change their minds, and or the community maybe able to debate the issue and convince them to add subs

 

 

But, the Devs main concerns right now are balance reasons as said above ^... the speed of the Subs compared to the other faster moving Ships and the match times would be a concern... the subs would need time to get into position and or to be of any real use...

 

so, they may have to have their very own game mode to function and for a balanced match/game play... so could have convoy Raid matches for Subs, one side DDs the other side in Subs and the subs goal is to destroy as many Convoy ships as possible before they reach the safety of Air cover and the DDs would have to try and protect the Convoy the best as possible

 

so I could see something like that

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Last player left, submarine, roughly 10 knots submerged, 20 on surface.
Last enemy, destroyer or similar, 30 knots+.

You have to surface to even have a chance of catching him, he sees you, he shoots and damages your pressure hull, you can't dive.
You have one 4 inch gun, he's manoeuvring so you can't get a torpedo shot in.

Do you chase him or wait in a cap circle and hope he goes directly in front of you.
If you get caught, as you get depth charged, he caps directly above you.

Are submarines allowed to cap while submerged? (There will be an arcade mode, it's popular).

Do they have limited air like battle stations?

Submarines are going to be hard to balance.
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subs would be really hard to balance tbh

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I´ll vote for No. Implementing submarines would create the need for something like 2 different maps within one battle (one map overseas and one below sea level for the subs).

How to spot and attack them? Implementing a sonar and waterbombs? You got surely a lot other things to do, if BB´s, DD´s and Cruisers are hunting you, while you´re fishing for a submarine. Giving the job of spotting them to CV´s, which got scout planes? Or way further, giving the spotting/attacking job to players in Torpedo bombers?

Overall i think it would be a bit of "too much" content, if submarines would get into WT, but if they´d make it into the game, i´ll bow respectfully to Gaijin^^.

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Er... I don't think that would be viable. Inner detail isn't something I really thought of, I'm gonna leave that to the Silent Hunter series.

 

Also, I need help creating sub trees.

 

 

v

 

 

This is what I got so far.

 

Kriegsmarine U-Boot Flotte

 

Type IIA/B/C/D sub (1934)- tier I vessel. Starter for sub captains.*

 

Type VIIA/B- tier I vessel(s).

 

Type VIIC- 'U-Flak'. Flak submarine, Tier I premium sub.

 

Type VIID- Minelayer sub. Tier I premium sub.

 

 

 

Type IXA/B/C/D (they're all the same thing, some just had more fuel)- Tier II subs.

 

Type X sub- used as long range minelayers. Limited production. Saw service in IJN. Tier II premium.

 

Type XVII sub- coastal sub with some sort of advanced propulsion system. Tier II premium.

 

Biber midget sub. Tier II sub.

 

Delphin midges sub. Tier II premium subby,

 

Type XXVIIA 'Hecht' midget sub. Tier II midget sub.

 

 

 

 

Type XXI submarine- first electric U-boats. Tier III sub.

 

Type XXVII 'Seehund' midget sub. Tier III sub.

 

 

 

Molch- tier IV midget sub.

 

Type XXIII sub- highly advanced small coastal elektroboot. (Electric subs.) Tier lV sub.

 

 

Type XXV sub- ocean going electric U-Boat. Never constructed, but there's not a whole lot of tier V material. Tier V sub.

 

Type XXVI sub- most advanced German sub. Ditto to Type XXV.

I was thinking of step 1- Spot it, D-Charge it into submission, let it surface and unload all the AI rounds into the deck. step 2- "secure" it, then chase it as the crew panics. Get it hooked up to the USS Guadal Canal (aiding the ship). Step 3- Escort the USS Guadal Canal, U-505 in tow.

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Any submarine player is just going to be cornered by three guys in destroyers chucking depth charges everywhere, and British ships have Squid and Hedgehog anti-submarine mortars (a few American ships were given Hedgehog by the Brits)

I think submarines are going to be the hardest ship class to play. Dont forget that subs will be hounded by American Catalinas and British Sunderlands and German Condors. Edited by NemesisActual
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Any submarine player is just going to be cornered by three guys in destroyers chucking depth charges everywhere, and British ships have Squid and Hedgehog anti-submarine mortars (a few American ships were given Hedgehog by the Brits)

I think submarines are going to be the hardest ship class to play. Dont forget that subs will be hounded by American Catalinas and British Sunderlands and German Condors.

as for every other naval unit.

Oh, and you forgot about the OS2U's, Hellcats, and Seafires, along with japanese carrier based fighters and floaty fighters.

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I think some U-Boats had a quad 20mm mount on them so they won't be too bad against low-lying aircraft.
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I think some U-Boats had a quad 20mm mount on them so they won't be too bad against low-lying aircraft.

yeap, but that is unusable when submerged.

Notably, when U-505 was captured, she was tracked and spotted by two naval fighters launched from the USS Guadalcanal.

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Be cool to see a squad acting as a wolf pack in game.
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This topic should probably be moved to naval discussions, where honestly it has been talked to death. 

 

That said, I suspect subs could be viable, but a lot of that would rest on map design, and quite frankly a map that is designed to balance subs will have so many obstacles and points of ambush that we now have a problem with these obstacles interfering in battleship and heavy cruiser gameplay where range is one of their biggest advantages. 

Not including subs for player selection in random battles makes sense. 

 

That said, a great number of highly prestigious ships were sunk by submarines. It would be tragic if there was no way to implement them at all in WT. Even if they are just board game pieces in WW mode, or AI controlled subs during matchmaking for special "sub hunt" modes. If we don't have AI controlled subs, then I hope they at least get representation in WW mode, just because of sinking so many carriers in WWII.  

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This topic should probably be moved to naval discussions, where honestly it has been talked to death. 

 

That said, I suspect subs could be viable, but a lot of that would rest on map design, and quite frankly a map that is designed to balance subs will have so many obstacles and points of ambush that we now have a problem with these obstacles interfering in battleship and heavy cruiser gameplay where range is one of their biggest advantages. 

Not including subs for player selection in random battles makes sense. 

 

That said, a great number of highly prestigious ships were sunk by submarines. It would be tragic if there was no way to implement them at all in WT. Even if they are just board game pieces in WW mode, or AI controlled subs during matchmaking for special "sub hunt" modes. If we don't have AI controlled subs, then I hope they at least get representation in WW mode, just because of sinking so many carriers in WWII.  

And the many curious events and happenings too-

Check out the story of U-505's Capture, and her 10th patrol, along with a weird story that earned her "the most heavily damaged sub that has ever maneaged to limp back to port for repairs".

Another U-boat survived a record making DC assault, although the exact number still remains questionable. Luckily, she escpaed unharmed.

Did the japanese really send out subs to attack in pearl? the true answer will suprise you, but their story will shock you.

Uss Natalus... The one sub that faded out of american history. But why?

What was so special about Manitowoc Shipyard, whose men built 28 GATO-Class Fleet subs, 25 of which saw action in WWII, with only 4 lost at sea.

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That said, a great number of highly prestigious ships were sunk by submarines.

One of the most interesting things I've found regarding submarines are original audio recordings from the USS Sealion during the attack on the Kongo (which sunk her).

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will move Thread to the Naval Section

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Maybe Wait till the game is anywhere near done with Air / Ground forces. 
Not a good thing to bring in more bugs and errors 

Wait till the engines basics are ready.

 

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Subs won't work. The fastest sub, the i201, was slower than battleships and not to mention practically all ships had sonar so all it will take is a DD to sail right on top of you and spam depth charges. You can't even surface in subs because they had no armor at all.
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