Jump to content

Historically Inaccurate Loadouts


According to todays Q&A Session, a problem with Ho-5 20 mm cannon and MG 151/20 on Ki-61.

 

So basically, in game we have three Ki-61 versions :

a) Ki-61 - la - 2x7.7mm + 2x12.7 mm

b) Ki-61 - lb 4x12.7 mm

c) Ki-61 - lc 2x12,7 + 2x20 mm MG 151 !!!!

The point is that none of the Ki-61 lc was equipped with german MG 151/20, only the KI-61 la and lb. 

But according to most of the Japanese material, Ho-5 only equipped in Ki-61 Id (mount in the body) but not Ic (with MG 151*2 in wings).

Your data was confused with the naming of Ia/Ib(一型甲、一型乙)and Ic(一型丙).

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Well, I base on materials in english. 

"Japanese Aircraft of the Pacific War - R.J. Francillon - Putnam&company"

"Kawasaki Ki-61 Hien (Tony) - Masami Tanimura"

And one in japanese : 

" Famous Airplanes of the World 017 - Ki 61 Hien (Tony)" :

 

                                                   Ki-61-la                  Ki-61-lb                  Ki-61-lc               Ki-61-II (propably lb)

ho5cannon.png

 

And according to them, the Ki-61-ld had  2x12.7 fuselage mounted and 2x30 mm HO-105 in wings.

"Putnam"

"Following the introduction of this version (Ki-61-lc) the Hien's production, which so far had been somewhat slow, quickly gained tempo and the monthly rate reached a peak of 254 aircraft in July 1944.

Including a few Ki-61-I KAIds, which were armed with a pair of 30 mm HO-105 cannon in wings and two fuselage mounted 12.7 mm Type 1 machine-guns, (...)"

 

Can you give me your materials ? The mistake is possible, but in more than 3 books ? 

And if you can share them, please also translate to english if they are in japanese.

medal medal

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Well, I base on materials in english. 

"Japanese Aircraft of the Pacific War - R.J. Francillon - Putnam&company"

"Kawasaki Ki-61 Hien (Tony) - Masami Tanimura"

" Famous Airplanes of the World 017 - Ki 61 Hien (Tony)" :

                                                   Ki-61-la                  Ki-61-lb                  Ki-61-lc                    Ki-61-II (propably lb)

ho5cannon.png

 

And according to them, the Ki-61-ld had  2x12.7 fuselage mounted and 2x30 mm HO-105 in wings.

"Putnam"

"Following the introduction of this version (Ki-61-lc) the Hien's production, which so far had been somewhat slow, quickly gained tempo and the monthly rate reached a peak of 254 aircraft in July 1944.

Including a few Ki-61-I KAIds, which were armed with a pair of 30 mm HO-105 cannon in wings and two fuselage mounted 12.7 mm Type 1 machine-guns, (...)"

 

Can you give me your materials ? The mistake is possible, but in more than 3 books ? 

And if you can share them, please also translate to english if they are in japanese.

Sorry but I don't have the real books, but as Japanese wiki quote, there's some books written by Watanabe Youji ( ISBN 4-16-724911-1  4-16-724911-1 4-16-724914-1)& Izumi(4-7698-0911-5), Akimoto(4-89319-014-8), and so on.

I'll find out if Taiwan have those books, but far from reassuring...

 

And well, in this graph shows tho Ho-103 are mount in wings and Ho-5 in fuselage. It make sense for Kawasaki's engineer because they wanted mor accuracy for the 20mm cannon.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

And well, in this graph shows tho Ho-103 are mount in wings and Ho-5 in fuselage. It make sense for Kawasaki's engineer because they wanted mor accuracy for the 20mm cannon.

 

 

Did I say it's different ? 

HO-5 was mounted in fuselage, and HO-103 MG's in wings. That took some time, to make it possible, the Kawasaki elongated a fuselage by 190mm, they've also make wings stronger and featured provision for fixed pylons for external stores outboard of the wheel wells, were mated to a slightly longer fuselage with detachable rear section.

Also the retractable tailwheel was replaced by a fixed unit while minor control modifications were incorporaed  ;)s

 

So you don't have any materials ? Then on what is your opinion based ?

medal medal

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Did I say it's different ? 

HO-5 was mounted in fuselage, and HO-103 MG's in wings. That took some time, to make it possible, the Kawasaki elongated a fuselage by 190mm, they've also make wings stronger and featured provision for fixed pylons for external stores outboard of the wheel wells, were mated to a slightly longer fuselage with detachable rear section.

Also the retractable tailwheel was replaced by a fixed unit while minor control modifications were incorporaed  ;)s

 

So you don't have any materials ? Then on what is your opinion based ?

Ahh, almost all Japanese website said so......I pick two of them(sorry I have no time to translate it all)

http://www.jyai.net/military/wepon/plane/type3_type5.htm

672A547D540D_zps1f4c25f0.png

 

(......"一型丙(Ic)": Was equipped with the German "Mauser Cannon", both remodeled from Ia/Ib and newly manufactured airplanes exist. Armaments with two Mauser Cannon[20mm] on wings and 12.7mm MG on the fuselage. On September 1943[Shouwa 18] rolled out the first aircraft, and all 388 of this type were manufactured or remodeled until July 1944.)

("一型丁(Id)":Equipped with domestic-made Ho-5 20mm cannon......)

 

 

http://military.sakura.ne.jp/ac/tony.htm

672A547D540D2_zpsf99b4c1b.png

 

And also,the tag on this plastic model part said,"Mauser 20mm Cannon for Hien model 1 Hei(Ki-61 Ic)"

71Y1D8O0liL_AA1500__zpsac204681.jpg

Yes I don't have text on my hand but still have common understanding Japan that Ic for Mauser, Id for Ho-5...

 

 

The Watabe's book is in here:

http://www.e-hon.ne.jp/bec/SA/Detail?refISBN=4167249146

 

I have put it into my shopping cart.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

And according to them, the Ki-61-ld had  2x12.7 fuselage mounted and 2x30 mm HO-105 in wings.

"Putnam"

"Following the introduction of this version (Ki-61-lc) the Hien's production, which so far had been somewhat slow, quickly gained tempo and the monthly rate reached a peak of 254 aircraft in July 1944.

Including a few Ki-61-I KAIds, which were armed with a pair of 30 mm HO-105 cannon in wings and two fuselage mounted 12.7 mm Type 1 machine-guns, (...)"

There was no Ho-105 but Ho-155 and had no any plan to put it on any of the Ki-61 series.

(But it's said few of Ki-61 Id were armed with it,though)

http://www.gunsight.jp/b/1/ja-gun.htm

http://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E3%83%9B155-I

http://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E3%83%9B155-II

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Yes, that's the mistake the Francilion and guys after him made. Americans are never accurate in such cases, I've also made research in case of that HO-105/155. The HO-105 was only a prototype, the final version was HO-155. But yes, there were tirals to put it on Ki-61, but seems it was only prototype. There was no production model with 30 mm cannons.

HO-155

ho115-1.gif

 

Seems it's all about western and asian naming. But even some japanese authors call Ki-61-Ic a new version, with HO-5 cannon. And MG 151/20 was a field modification. 

 

I mean, it might take some time to get precise names.

medal medal

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Now all I can do is to wait the book shipped to my home :yes:

 

And can you give more tables/graphs about that? I think my Japanese language proficiency could help :kamikadze:

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Don't have more tables. Francilion mostly desribed that in text (which you can read higher), and you already have table from "Famous Airplanes of the World 017 - Ki 61 Hien". I have a 1-2 more materials, but I need to scan them - a paper version, not digital ;)

medal medal

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Don't have more tables. Francilion mostly desribed that in text (which you can read higher), and you already have table from "Famous Airplanes of the World 017 - Ki 61 Hien". I have a 1-2 more materials, but I need to scan them - a paper version, not digital ;)

是非、お願いします! :salute:

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Ok, I've called a friend  - he's a specialist in Japanese Army/Navy, and he has made a bigger research (speak japanese so it was easy for him, to check all the books).

 

It seems that we both are right, because it's all about naming the planes. The Japanese authors mostly present it like that :

Ki-61-I Ko (Ki-61-Ia): 2×7,7 mm Type 89 (2×500 bullets) in wings, 2×12,7 mm Ho-103 (2×250) in fuselage
Ki-61-I Otsu (Ki-61-Ib): 2×12,7 mm Ho-103 (2×250) in wings, 2×12,7 mm Ho-103 (2×250) in fuselage
Ki-61-I Hei (Ki-61-Ic): 2×20 mm MG 151 (2×120) in wings, 2×12,7 mm Ho-103 (2×250) in fuselage
Ki-61-I Tei (Ki-61-Id; longer fuselage): 2×12,7 mm Ho-103 (2×250) in wings, 2×20 mm Ho-5 (2×120) in fuselage

 

Th western authors (basing on US reports) like Francilion, and authors after him - even japanese named planes like I've presented :

 

 

 Ki-61-l KAIa - 2x7.7 mm  in wings + 2x12.7mm fuselage mounted

 Ki-61-l KAIb - 4x12.7mm  in wings and fuselage

 Modified  Ki-61-l KAIa and KAIb - 2x12.7  fuselage mounted + 2x20 mm German MG 151/20 in wings

 Ki-61-l KAIc  - longer fuselage, 2x12.7mm in wings + 2x20mm Ho-5 Japanese Cannon  fuselage mounted

 

Both are correct, it depends which one you will choose. Western is now very common in english mongraphies, even written by a japanese authors.  The Japanese seems to be more precise, especially when we find that the field modifications with MG 151/20 are a big myth. 

All the german guns were mounted  on production line, here is photography :

ki61assembleline.png

KI-61-I Hei (c)

 

 

In release tree we can see that devs decided to stick to japanese naming system. Than everything is correct, and we just need to wait for Ki-61-I Tei with HO-5 20 mm cannons in fuselage. 

 

medal medal

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Ok, I've called a friend  - he's a specialist in Japanese Army/Navy, and he has made a bigger research (speak japanese so it was easy for him, to check all the books).

 

It seems that we both are right, because it's all about naming the planes. The Japanese authors mostly present it like that :

Ki-61-I Ko (Ki-61-Ia): 2×7,7 mm Type 89 (2×500 bullets) in wings, 2×12,7 mm Ho-103 (2×250) in fuselage
Ki-61-I Otsu (Ki-61-Ib): 2×12,7 mm Ho-103 (2×250) in wings, 2×12,7 mm Ho-103 (2×250) in fuselage
Ki-61-I Hei (Ki-61-Ic): 2×20 mm MG 151 (2×120) in wings, 2×12,7 mm Ho-103 (2×250) in fuselage
Ki-61-I Tei (Ki-61-Id; longer fuselage): 2×12,7 mm Ho-103 (2×250) in wings, 2×20 mm Ho-5 (2×120) in fuselage

 

Th western authors (basing on US reports) like Francilion, and authors after him - even japanese named planes like I've presented :

 

 

 Ki-61-l KAIa - 2x7.7 mm  in wings + 2x12.7mm fuselage mounted

 Ki-61-l KAIb - 4x12.7mm  in wings and fuselage

 Modified  Ki-61-l KAIa and KAIb - 2x12.7  fuselage mounted + 2x20 mm German MG 151/20 in wings

 Ki-61-l KAIc  - longer fuselage, 2x12.7mm in wings + 2x20mm Ho-5 Japanese Cannon  fuselage mounted

 

Both are correct, it depends which one you will choose. Western is now very common in english mongraphies, even written by a japanese authors.  The Japanese seems to be more precise, especially when we find that the field modifications with MG 151/20 are a big myth. 

All the german guns were mounted  on production line, here is photography :

ki61assembleline.png

KI-61-I Hei (c)

 

 

In release tree we can see that devs decided to stick to japanese naming system. Than everything is correct, and we just need to wait for Ki-61-I Tei with HO-5 20 mm cannons in fuselage. 

 

See post

http://forum.warthunder.com/index.php?/topic/33912-japanese-naming-conventions/

 

Its actually due to the way the IJAAF specifically used the Kitai naming system during this period. While the  IJNAF used the short form, than a "popular name" convention. The IJAAF used a both Kitai with some Kanji designators for varient. The Army and the navy used separate systems that meant entirely different things.

 

Ki-61-I Ko = Ki-6 same

While both reflect the same plane the Ko designation is from from the type/name designation system. Japanese only used this for planes Accepted into service. So the kitai system for airframes was used to name ALL planes for the army. . However this only applied to new plane models not to varients. Major modifications that were not considered worthy of a new model number were marked as remodelled (KAI, from the first two Japanese letters of Kaiso, remodel), as with the Ki-61 Hien.Here the second production version was the Ki-61-Ib and the third was the Ki-61-I KAIc. KAI was not used in the Type system, so I KAI c was simply Model IC. It's just a matter of what the author is looking at as far as which stsem he is reporting from.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

See post

http://forum.warthunder.com/index.php?/topic/33912-japanese-naming-conventions/

 

Its actually due to the way the IJAAF specifically used the Kitai naming system during this period. While the  IJNAF used the short form, than a "popular name" convention. The IJAAF used a both Kitai with some Kanji designators for varient. The Army and the navy used separate systems that meant entirely different things.

 

Ki-61-I Ko = Ki-6 same

While both reflect the same plane the Ko designation is from from the type/name designation system. Japanese only used this for planes Accepted into service. So the kitai system for airframes was used to name ALL planes for the army. . However this only applied to new plane models not to varients. Major modifications that were not considered worthy of a new model number were marked as remodelled (KAI, from the first two Japanese letters of Kaiso, remodel), as with the Ki-61 Hien.Here the second production version was the Ki-61-Ib and the third was the Ki-61-I KAIc. KAI was not used in the Type system, so I KAI c was simply Model IC. It's just a matter of what the author is looking at as far as which stsem he is reporting from.

The prototype in named "Ki-61", Ki-6 was this:

http://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E4%B9%9D%E4%BA%94%E5%BC%8F%E4%BA%8C%E5%9E%8B%E7%B7%B4%E7%BF%92%E6%A9%9F

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The prototype in named "Ki-61", Ki-6 was this:

http://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E4%B9%9D%E4%BA%94%E5%BC%8F%E4%BA%8C%E5%9E%8B%E7%B7%B4%E7%BF%92%E6%A9%9F

Yeah It may have been regalled for training purposes at some point due to subsequent models being produced therefore rendering this an obsolete model. But hat has very little to do with the "KO" designation as it refers to to its use in the Navy short or popular name use it what i'm tryin to say.

The terms Ko, Otsu, etc were given to models of production aircraft to signify varients of the same plane. i.e Ki-61-I Ko (first production varient), Ki-61-I Otsu Second production varient modified via upgraded weapons and rear tail wheel assembly), etc, the term KAI signifies a change in the Airframe, but not in the series to designate an new model ie I moving to II

However. It is also wise to note that in Japan a model number did not appear on an aircraft until a new model was produced either.

 

I was going to type it all out but to save time,

Here is every Tony ever produced, flown, or Imagined. Scanned from my files.

[attachment=12689:hien1.jpg][attachment=12690:hien2.jpg]

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Yeah It may have been regalled for training purposes at some point due to subsequent models being produced therefore rendering this an obsolete model. But hat has very little to do with the "KO" designation as it refers to to its use in the Navy short or popular name use it what i'm tryin to say.

The terms Ko, Otsu, etc were given to models of production aircraft to signify varients of the same plane. i.e Ki-61-I Ko (first production varient), Ki-61-I Otsu Second production varient modified via upgraded weapons and rear tail wheel assembly), etc, the term KAI signifies a change in the Airframe, but not in the series to designate an new model ie I moving to II

However. It is also wise to note that in Japan a model number did not appear on an aircraft until a new model was produced either.

 

I was going to type it all out but to save time,

Here is every Tony ever produced, flown, or Imagined. Scanned from my files.

attachicon.gifhien1.jpgattachicon.gifhien2.jpg

But as this website showed, the formal naming system is below:

672A547D540D_zpsbcae6ffa.png

a."The year that aircraft services."(generally 1 or 2 digit)

b."Type of Aircraft"

c."(Kata) for large model change"(officially in kanji but also in Roman numerals.) = g

d."(Kata) for small model change" 

At this part in the designation code, smaller change used the term "Ko,Otsu,Hei", and so on.  Bigger or more important reform will put "KAI" on it. = h

 

e."Nick name"(like "Hayabusa""Shouki""Hiryu") not for official naming

 

So the meaning of word "Kai" is not fixed as the air frame change, or the a new engine to equip.

 

http://zenibo-no-milimania.world.coocan.jp/mpljan.htm

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

What they are doing on that sight is blending 3 systems together.

The Type/model system.

The Kitai system

and the "popular" system.

and placing them all together. Its a modernization that would not be possible in those days.

The Japanese used Kitai to mark Airframes not planes that were in service. For that they used the type/model, so Type 3 Fighter, Model I Ko etc when it was in service. 

HOWEVER, it would not have received the "KO" until the Type 3 Fighter, Model I Otu/Otsu or Ki 61-1(otsu) ( or B) was made.

Because there is no need to label a variant if no other variant exists.

 

Plus they did not stamp variant info on planes. (the triangle markings on aft fuselage) So if the plane was captured enemies wouldn't know exactly what they had. They only marked for example KI-61-I ie the Kitai airframe model.

 

and yes KAI (or KAIZO) is to designate a change to airframe design or major overhaul of the varient. ie the KI-61 ds Hei, and Tei both received changes to the elongation of the nose. The term Airframe in aircraft design refers to the whole plane and it's parts, not just to the metal or wood support structure. Also why you have 2 model II KAI's as one is an improvement over the airframe design of the other.

I hope that helps you to understand.

 

The popular style of naming didn't enter in until 1943, in most cases. This was mostly a propaganda thing to confuse enemies as to aircraft variant. The "not to be used" refers to manufacturers shall not use" in context they must use the formal systems. However, the army/navy used the popular names at that point to refer to these companies and planes in that fashion because by reading a planes naming codes you could tell not only who made it, but what where, what it carried, etc. So to avoid this, the popular naming convention wa born. However they kept the Kitai system and type/model for formal paperwork reasons. Etc. It is not the same as The US labeling the P51 as the Mustang. That WAS the mustang. Whereas the KI61 was codenamed the Hien in reference for purposes of confusing the allies and keeping the variant information from them

  • Upvote 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

So the main thing is the kitai system on western writings is JUST the reflect for the naming internal IJA during war time. Thanks for the information.

But I think now the tech tree had used the modern designation system which we familiar to, and is easier to make classification to. That won't make problem in the weapon equipment inaccuracy.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'm not sure how reliable a source you need for this, but according to just about everything I've read about La-5FN, it should have 200 rpg for its dual ShVAKs instead of 170 ingame right now:

 

[spoiler]La-5FN_armament.jpg[/spoiler]

 

Download link to the source: http://depositfiles.com/files/tqgnybkxh (screenshot is from page 21)

medal

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Looks like XP-55 in 1.31 has wrong armament. Armament was originally 2x 20mm, 2x.50cal which was later changed to 4x.50cal. Version ingame has 2x 20mm, 4x.50 cal..

I'm not sure how reliable a source you need for this, but according to just about everything I've read about La-5FN, it should have 200 rpg for its dual ShVAKs instead of 170 ingame right now:

If you look into it more, there were more variation. Some planes had 170 rpg in both, some planes had 200 rounds on one gun and 170 round in the other side. Not sure what exactly the deal was
medal medal

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Another source to back up BuccaneerBill's comment on the Beaufort's payload.

 

http://www.wwiivehicles.com/unitedkingdom/aircraft/torpedo-bomber/bristol-beaufort.asp

 

 

Also, the Blenhiem is missing the eight 40lb bombs mounted under the wings.

 

http://www.airpowerworld.info/bombers/bristol-blenheim-iv.htm

http://www.wwiivehicles.com/unitedkingdom/aircraft/bomber/bristol-blenheim.asp

medal medal

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

You can put the Ju-87 guns into the fixed section.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

You can put the Ju-87 guns into the fixed section.

Ooh awesome, that's actually the first weapon change (previous changes were all ammo counts). Let's hope it's the first of many
medal medal

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Ooh awesome, that's actually the first weapon change (previous changes were all ammo counts). Let's hope it's the first of many

 

You can also shelve the MG FF/M issue on the Bf 110 C-4 and Do 217 E-4.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

A slight off topic here, does anyone know where I can let the devs know that the service ceiling in the tooltip for the Fairey Swordfish is wrong? It says 328 ft when the service ceiling was actually 19250 ft. The 328 ft isn't actually enforced in game, but just so the devs know about the typo.

medal medal

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The Do217 N1 has 200 rounds of Mg151/20 missing, as they were supposed to have 250rpg rather than 200rpg.

medal medal

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.

×
×
  • Create New...