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Historically Inaccurate Loadouts


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Summary: F8F-1 has wrong weaponry (being AN/M3 machine guns, should be AN/M2 machine guns)

Edited by Tarskin
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You have really not followed what we are discussing now have you?

 

Summary: F8F-1 has wrong weaponry (being AN/M3 machine guns, should be AN/M2 machine guns)

 

Oh I know. I just wanted to pop that in there in case anything else came up.

 

On track though: I do believe they used the AN/M2 machine gun in 1945 due to the AN/M3 either not being made or still being tested. It was later fitted with the AN/M3 to be used as a ground attack craft in the Korean war. F8F-1B and beyond had the 20mm version.

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I've sent queries to the National Naval Aviation Museum and a few other places about the M3 vs M2 issue. My guess is the planes were originally armed with M2's and then upgraded as the new M3's were made available - the timeline fits that the carrier-fighter group on its way to Japan would've been given these upgraded weapons, although the prototypes and pre-production planes would obviously not. However I hope to hear back about this sometime next week.

 

Similarly, I've sent emails to a few places about the 318th Fighter Group in Le Shima - I've followed another person's trail and there seems to have been a shipment of M3 machine guns to Le Shima Airfield, but I'm not sure if they ever actually put them on the P-47N's flying from there. However the 318th's P-47Ns were the only aircraft I'm aware of flying out of Le Shima in any any numbers,  making them the only potential WWII era P-47 unit that could've been so armed.

 

The Bearcat, Le Shima P-47N's and the top turret of the B-29 are the only places I've heard of the M3 being used during the war. I hope to have further answers/confirmation about the first two, the last is still something that I've heard before but never had the interest to actually go look for it.

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(short reply due to being on mobile) are there any sources to support the shipment of AN/M3 machine guns to said airfield?

Would it not be possible that M3 cannons got shipped there instead to retrofit f8f-1 into f8f-1b's? That would also fit quite well with the fact that they went with 20mm cannons for all aircraft after the f8f-1's.
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We all agree however that the AN/M2 is what the f8f-1 should have as weaponry, the possibility of AN/M3 is so far unfounded but also still being investigated (see 2 posts above)
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We all agree however that the AN/M2 is what the f8f-1 should have as weaponry, the possibility of AN/M3 is so far unfounded but also still being investigated (see 2 posts above)

Patience and curiosity are rewarded:

"The F8F-1 was equipped with four M2 Browning 50 cal machine guns. Subsequent production runs of aircraft (F8F-1B and later) had modifications that included the replacement of the 50 cal guns with M3 20mm cannon." from the Emil Buehler library of the National Naval Aviation Museum, Pensacola. 

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As several players have already mentioned in other forums, the armament present on the Grumman XF5F-1 "Skyrocket" is not what it's projected armament would have been.

 

The projected armament called for either 2x 23mm Masden cannon, or 4x .5 inch machine guns. As far as my (limited) research can say, there was never any plans to give the plane the armament currently in game, and therefore I believe it is inaccurate. My personal opinion is that the plane should be armed with the .5 inch MGs, as while the plane was originally designed around the Masden cannons, potential difficulty in acquiring them (the Madsen cannon was manufactured and developed in Denmark) led to Grumman revising the armament to be MG-only. Of course, the optimal one would be two armament configurations, but for a promo plane I don't expect them to go that far.

 

On another note, while this probably falls under "Not the place to demand bombloads", but it's still rather silly that the plane is classified as a "naval fighter/bomber" in the tech tree despite not being able to carry it's planned 2x 165lb bombs.

 

Wikipedia uses the following for the armament source: http://www.fiddlersgreen.net/models/Aircraft/Grumman-Skyrocket.html

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Patience and curiosity are rewarded:
"The F8F-1 was equipped with four M2 Browning 50 cal machine guns. Subsequent production runs of aircraft (F8F-1B and later) had modifications that included the replacement of the 50 cal guns with M3 20mm cannon." from the Emil Buehler library of the National Naval Aviation Museum, Pensacola. 


AN/M3 cannons versus AN/M3 Machine Guns. The point is still valid, the F8F-1 should not (or ever have) AN/M3 HMG's.

Why they used the same 'name' for a 12.7mm and a 20mm (AN/M3 ...) weapon system is beyond me. Edited by Tarskin
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That is  the nature of US military nomenclature. You listed things by category, then model number,lastly variants. For example an M4 could be a sherman tank or the carbine version of the M16 assault rifle. An M1 could be the Abrams MBT or the Garand semi automatic rifle. Now my personal favorite: A P38 could be the twin engined / boomed fighter that produced many US aces, or a folding can opener that was general issue to everyone in the same time period.

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I want a P38 in my P38 for when I crash and need to get out fast ;)

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Patience and curiosity are rewarded:

"The F8F-1 was equipped with four M2 Browning 50 cal machine guns. Subsequent production runs of aircraft (F8F-1B and later) had modifications that included the replacement of the 50 cal guns with M3 20mm cannon." from the Emil Buehler library of the National Naval Aviation Museum, Pensacola. 

 

More and more proof that Gaijin simply got confused between the M3 20mm cannons with the M3 .50 machine guns.

 

F8F-1 definitely needs to be fixed to have the 850rpm AN/M2 .50 machine guns.

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  • 2 weeks later...

I spent a little time reading the description of the British Gloster Meteor. I realized that all the variants are said to have Hispanos Mk II in their descriptions except for the F.8. In the latter's description, it is stated it was the first Meteor to have Hispanos Mk V which had a higher RoF. Yet when looking at the armament, they all have Mk Vs. This means all the Meteors have (Except for the F.8) do not have the right guns on them or the description is flawed.

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If you have any other sources for this it would be highly appreciated.

Edit: Also, under Incorrect Ammo Counts, the G.50 and G.50 7AS should be listed as carrying 300 rounds currently, rather than the 600 they did in real life: http://forum.warthunder.com/index.php?/topic/73009-fiat-g50-freccia-ammo-dispute/ Edited by Mattiator

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  • 2 weeks later...

The HS129B-2 should be able to carry a 50kg bomb under each wing, the 4x50kg bomb option should actually be 6x50kg.

There should also be a second option to carry a 250kg bomb under the belly instead of the 4x50kg bomb rack, this bomb load should be 250kg and 2x50kg.

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More and more proof that Gaijin simply got confused between the M3 20mm cannons with the M3 .50 machine guns.

 

F8F-1 definitely needs to be fixed to have the 850rpm AN/M2 .50 machine guns.

while they are at it they can fix all the AN/M2s so they all fire 800-850/min

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  • 2 weeks later...

More and more proof that Gaijin simply got confused between the M3 20mm cannons with the M3 .50 machine guns.

 

F8F-1 definitely needs to be fixed to have the 850rpm AN/M2 .50 machine guns.

 

Yes, there are plenty plenty.....  of things to fix due to lack of their knowledge. Bearcats were using four AN/M2 Browning machine guns. I was searching in my publications and documents...there was no lead for those high rate of fire AN/M3 Brownings.

 

One thing which is also wierd is ammount of ammunition. In WarThunder we have 400rounds per gun ( 1600rnds) like the Hellcat but my source says that Bearcat had 300rpg. Other publications not specify this kind of information.

Edited by Sajonez

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Problem with the F8F-1's armament is that manuals only specify '.50cal' and don't mention a specific model

 

Oh my god man. Dont you have some armament manuals or documents for Browning machine guns? I am sure that Clay knows this stuff. AN/M3 high rate of fire machine guns were used by P80B, C Shooting Stars, F86 machine gun Sabres and F-82 TwinMustangs. Nothing more was using this armament at the time.

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Whats really frustrating and should be considered is incorrect loadout for P-47Ds ( D-25,D-28) and P-51Ds ( D-5, D-20)...again!

 

I was referring like an half year ago to model up M10 rocket launchers for these planes and I told you which planes used them. Ok congratz, you ve made it. Why did you put them after HVAR rockets for unlocking in upgrade system? What kind of logic is that? Theres no advantage for using those tubes by comparison with HVAR rockets! They have M8 4.5inch rockets and tubes are causing a lots of drag. There were plenty of versions and some of them could be jettisoned in emergency, but ok...this is no simulator...Hell but HVAR 5inch rockets were another step of additional loadout. The reasons why are pretty obvious i think. After firing those rockets, there was minimal drag due to grids. HVAR rockets were also seperated in HE and AP versions. HE could not penetrate tank as they can in this game. AP rockets of course could and they had more value of penetration then those M8 4.5inch rockets. HVARs could penetrate Tiger tanks in much higher distance and they were also more accurate. Another advantage of HVAR rockets is in their numbers. Simple example. D-20 Mustang could carry six M8 4.5inch rockets in those M10 tubes but D-30 could carry up to ten HVAR 5inch rockets!

 

Another argument. ...There were some construction changes of wings innerstructure and HVAR rockets were used in late of 1944s. A lots of publications says that first Thunderbolt which actually used them was D-40 version! First Mustang which used them was D-25 NA version! 

Edited by Sajonez
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Lancaster Bomb Loads

Bombbay-nose.JPG

The lancaster had an enormous bomb bay and it was not sectioned off like US bombers so it could carry really large bombs.

Lancaster Mark II: 14-1000, 28-500, 14-500, 1-4000, 1-8000, 1-12,000

Lancaster B Mark II: 14-1000, 28-500, 28-250, 14-500, 14-250

Lancaster Mark I Special: Blockbuster, Dam Buster, Grand Slam, Cookie, Tall Boy, 28-500, 14-1000, 14-500, 140-250.

 

Blast & Demolition:

1. 1X 8000lb HE plus 6X 500lb HE bombs

 

2. 14X 1000lb HE

Blast, demolition, & fire

 

3. 1X 4000lv HE plus 3X 1000lb HE plus up to 6 SBC's (small bomb containers) each holding either 236X 4lb or 24X 30lb incendiaries

 

4. 1X 4000lb HE plus up to 12 SBCs

Maximum incendiary

 

5. 14 SBCs

Deployed Tactical targets

 

6. 1X 4000lb HE plus up to 18, 500lb HE

Low-level attacks

 

7. 6X 1000lb HE with delayed action fuses

Hardened targets, naval installations, ships

 

8. 6X 2000lb armor piercing with short delay fuses

Mine laying

 

9. Up to 6X 1500lb or 1850lb mines

 

I have another reference with a 4000lb "Cookie", 3X 1000lb bombs, 24X 250lb bombs, and 6 SBCs.

To give an example of a typical raid-- in this case to Friedrichshafen, here was a typical bomb load for the flights:

Leader plus in 2 Lanc IIIs - 1 4000lb and 7X 500lb bombs

97 Sqn Pathfinders-- 2 Lanc III -- 3Xred markers, 3Xgreen markers, 16Xwhite flares, 2X 500lb bombs, 2 red markers, 2 green markers, 32 white flares, and 2 500lb bombs

A following group of 32 Lanc IIIs with a 4000lb and 7X 500lb bombs

A Lanc fitted with a Mk XIV bombsight with 14X 500 lb bombs

Lanc III not fitted with above sight-- full incendiary load

http://www.taphilo.com/Photo/Pictures/Lancaster/index.shtml

Edited by Trommelfeuer
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@Sajonez

 

Can you provide any evidence in relation to the P80B and P/F80C's armament? In all the searching I have done I have not been able to find any reference to these aircraft having the AN/M3 50.cals and several sources stating that they were armed with the AN/M2 50.cals. Also talking of the AN/M3 50.cals used on aircraft in this era, they were also used on the F84 Thunderjet.

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@Sajonez

 

Can you provide any evidence in relation to the P80B and P/F80C's armament? In all the searching I have done I have not been able to find any reference to these aircraft having the AN/M3 50.cals and several sources stating that they were armed with the AN/M2 50.cals. Also talking of the AN/M3 50.cals used on aircraft in this era, they were also used on the F84 Thunderjet.

Man, I forgot on those Thunderjets. Thank you :)s.

 

Yes, sure. I can give you some quick sources otherwise I would have to go through my stuff. Heres some important answer: "  It used the improved M3 machine guns first introduced on the later production blocks of the P-80B."

 

http://joebaugher.com/usaf_fighters/p80_6.html

http://www.airwar.ru/enc/fighter/f80b.html

http://forum.valka.cz/viewtopic.php/title/Lockheed-P-80-Shooting-Star/p/485596#485596 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lockheed_P-80_Shooting_Star

http://www.456fis.org/F-80_SHOOTING_STAR.htm

Edited by Sajonez

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Glad I could remind you about those F84s ;)

 

Very interesting that not that long ago the F80's wiki page did not specify the 50.cal armament in either AN/M2 or AN/M3. It seems that as the War Thunder plane discussions heat up quite a lot of changes are being made to wiki and other such stat pages online. From what I can remember I could only find one or two websites specifying its armament as and AN/M2s and everything else I found didn't specify M2 or M3. But from what you have posted there it looks like you are quite right. Thanks for the info.

 

:salute:

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The IL-10 could take 2x250 kg bombs or 6x50kg bombs unlike the current payload

Also it could be armed to up to 4x23mm cannons and the gunner could have 1 20mm. Unlike in game where it has 2x23mm and 2x7.7's and 1 12.7mm gunner.

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