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ID:0028613 11/05/15 German tanks have the wrong colour!


Vehicles affected: Every german tank with grey colourscheme!

 

Something has been bugging me for quite a while now, this being the colour of low tier german tanks.

 

Basically every tank that has just a grey colour scheme is wrong. They are far to bright. Luckily, this can be easily verified. Germans used a standardized colouring system which is still used today. That system is called RAL!

 

http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/RAL-Farbe#Grau

 

The colour they used for their grey paint was called RAL 7021 Schwarzgrau (then called "Dunkelgrau" aka dark grey). I don't know if you need historical sources for this but just google Wehrmachtsgrau and you find this RAL7021 colour in literally thousands of modeller sites and shops. So THAT is the colour they used for their tanks. I assume this can be accepted as it is. (I can also quote Spielberger if you like, but I assume  this is not necessary.)

 

Here a link to the offical RAL shop:

http://www.ral-farben.de/content/application-help/all-ral-colours-names/overview-ral-classic-colours.html

 

So, we are looking at THIS colour:

RAL7021.png

 

 

 

 

 

Now let's compare to what we have ingame:

 

1c7aab408547619.jpg

 

 

What we have here is a Panzer IV F2 in testdrive on a clear day. I have impossed a sample of the RAL7021 colour beside it.

Now all my settings are pretty much on default, I don't use any kind of colour correction and my gamma is also on default level. It is very very clear that the grey is just too damn bright. Now even if we assume it appears a bit brighter ingame because it is a clear and sunny day...it is still a LONG way from what we should have. Even standing in the shadows this grey is brighter than RAL7021!

 

This is an issue especially in RB/SB where this VERY BRIGHT grey paintscheme is easily spotted.

 

Here another example...a Jgdpz. 38t painted in Wehrmachtsgrau. Again it is clear that this looks VERY different from what we have ingame.:

[spoiler]

ch_jgdpz_hetzer_g13-008.jpg

[/spoiler]

 

 

Solution:

 

This one is really easy. They colour scheme needs to be adjusted for the internationlly recognized and standardized RAL colour! There really is no excuse to use any other colour since we know they used them and the exact properties of this colour is known and STILL USED TODAY.

 

Please fix this! Let me know if you need anything else!

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Hi Bombasticus,

                        Thanks for the report.
 

We would need something that actually tied the colour to the vehicles (preferably from the OEM)  ie; Wehrmacht documents stating that colour used.

 

Also, that particular colour could well be problematic in game.  It is very dark, very close to black.  In night games it would nearly make vehicles invisible.  It would also be hard for some of the older machines to render properly.

 

At the moment that colour used is close to the rock colour.  The darker colour would make the German tanks 'stand out' somewhat in the normal day time game.

 

But if you can find me that reference I will pass it to the Dev's for them to consider.

 

Cheers,

 

KotA

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Hi Bombasticus,

                        Thanks for the report.
 

We would need something that actually tied the colour to the vehicles (preferably from the OEM)  ie; Wehrmacht documents stating that colour used.

 

Also, that particular colour could well be problematic in game.  It is very dark, very close to black.  In night games it would nearly make vehicles invisible.  It would also be hard for some of the older machines to render properly.

 

At the moment that colour used is close to the rock colour.  The darker colour would make the German tanks 'stand out' somewhat in the normal day time game.

 

But if you can find me that reference I will pass it to the Dev's for them to consider.

 

Cheers,

 

KotA

 

Well...in one year of playing Ground Forces I had exactly ONE night battle. I don't think this is a problem;)

To be honest. I don't know why a different colour would be more difficult to render.....it's just a colour. Could you explain that a bit more? As for making it more or less standing out. This should be relatively immaterial, don't you think? It was the colour they had and used. (Also...with their bright colour they already ARE standing out extremely...so it can't really get any worse imho)

 

As for reference....are those links to modeller and paint shops sufficient? I mean it is pretty obvious that RAL7021 is indeed the Wehrmachtsgrau (eg the colour they used.)

 

Here is a link explaining all the colour schemes:

http://www.panzerbaer.de/colours/a_relaunch/wh_tarn-b.htm

 

Here links from paintshops selling RAL7021 as Wehrmachtsgrau:

http://www.wehrmachtsgespann.de/webshop/ks-lack.html

http://www.ural-zentrale.de/product_info.php/info/p1814_Lack-Wehrmachtsgrau--RAL-7021--Schwarzgrau.html

http://www.autolackcenter.de/militaerlack/wehrmacht/militaerfarbe-kunstharzlack-wehrmacht-ral7021.html

http://frickwork.eshop.t-online.de/MIPA-spray-RAL-7021-400-ml

 

 

 

Here is a write up from another forum with references from Jentz and Doyle - "Panzertracts No 1-2", Bruce Culver and Richard Murphy I, II & III "Camouflage of the German Panzer forces 1939 - 43."

 

[spoiler]

German Wehrmacht Camouflage RAL color WW2

Camouflage patterns of the Wehrmacht were regulated by Army Communiqués (Heeresmitteilung) issued throughout the war. Vehicle base colours were permanently applied at the factory, and factories were the first to implement any base colour changes. When dark yellow was introduced as a base colour in 1943, the new regulation was rapidly implemented, any recently produced equipment was immediately repainted at the factory. Depot vehicles were to be handed out to units in the new base colour only. However, vehicles already in operation were not to be repainted, they retained the dark grey base colour.

Basic Vehicle Patterns

* 1935-1939 Anthrazitgrau Base Colour.
* 1940 Panzergrau Base Colour.
* 1941 Pattern North Africa.
* 1942 Pattern North Africa/Crete.
* 1943 Dunkelgelb Base Colour.
* 1944 Ambush Pattern.
* 1944 Red Primer Base.
* 1944 Dark Green Base Colour.

Camouflage patterns were applied in the field, using water/fuel soluable camouflage paste vailable in three colours, dark yellow, oliv green, and red brown. Camouflage paste could be washed off with fuel in the event that a pattern needed to be adapted to local and seasonal conditions.
Camouflage paste was also used on Panzergrau vehicles in 1943.

Anthrazitgrau/Signalbraun Pattern, 1935-1939
RAL 7016 Anthrazitgrau - Factory Base Coat
RAL 8002 Signalbraun - Disruptive Pattern

Vehicles drafted in 1939 were painted in this pattern. The base colour dominated the disruptive pattern by a factor of 2 to 1, with soft contours between colours.

Panzergrau (HM 1940, Nr. 864 of 31.06.1940)
RAL 7021 Schwarzgrau - Factory Base Coat

Panzergrau replaced the earlier two-colour pattern in 1940, in order to save paint. Panzergrau was discontinued in February of 1943. Vehicles in operation were not to be repainted. Instead, camouflage paste was used to create two and three colour patterns over the Panzergrau base colour. Armoured vehicles at Kursk in 1943 are documented in Panzergrau with Dunkelgelb patches, typically in the recommended ratio of 2 to 1.

Afrikakorps Disruptive Pattern (Heeresmitteilung 1941, Nr. 281)
RAL 8000 Grünbraun - Base Colour
RAL 7008 Grüngrau - Disruptive Pattern

Panzergrau vehicles deployed to Africa were repainted in the new base colour with disruptive patches. The base colour dominated the disruptive pattern by a factor of 2 to 1, with soft contours between colours.

Afrikakorps Disruptive Pattern (HM 1942, Nr. 315 of 25.03.1942)
RAL 8020 Gelbbraun - Base Colour
RAL 7027 Sandgrau - Disruptive Pattern

The new pattern for Africa was introduced in March of 1942. Available paint and camouflage paste of the earlier pattern was to be used up, resulting in a mixture of patterns in the interim period. The new Africa pattern was also used in Crete (HM 1942, Nr. 600). Water soluable, and removable camouflage paste was to be used to paint vehicle tarps.

Dunkelgelb Base Colour with Disruptive Pattern (HM 1943, Nr. 181 and 322)
RAL 7028 Dunkelgelb - Factory Base Coat
RAL 6003 Olivgrün - Disruptive Pattern
RAL 8017 Schokoladenbraun - Disruptive Pattern

As of February 1943, vehicles were supplied in the Dunkelgelb factory base coat, to be painted with camouflage patterns according to regional and seasonal requirements. As a result, a great variety of two and three colour patterns were in existence, even serving alongside eachother in the same unit. Operational vehicles painted Panzergrau were not to be repainted in the new base colour. Instead, camouflage paste was to be used to create two- and three-colour patterns.

Ambush Pattern, 19th August 1944
RAL 7028 Dunkelgelb - Factory Base Coat
RAL 6003 Olivgrün - Disruptive Pattern
RAL 8017 Schokoladenbraun - Disruptive Pattern

The ambush pattern was designed to hide vehicles under trees, an important consideration in light of allied air superiority following the Normandy landings. Ambush pattern was factory applied, using standard designs.

Dark Red Primer Coat with Disruptive Pattern, 31st October 1944
RAL 8012 Dark Red Primer - Factory Base Coat
RAL 6003 Olivgrün - Disruptive Pattern
RAL 7028 Dunkelgelb - Disruptive Pattern
RAL 7021 Schwarzgrau - Disruptive Pattern

A simplyfied process of applying the three colour disruptive pattern, using the dark red primer as the base colour and adding disruptive patterns of Olivgrün and Dunkelgelb at the factory. Panzergrau may have been used as an alternative to Dunkelgelb on occasion.

Olivgrün Base Colour with Disruptive Pattern, 31st November 1944
RAL 6003 Olivgrün - Factory Base Coat
RAL 8017 Schokoladenbraun - Disruptive Pattern
RAL 7028 Dunkelgelb - Disruptive Pattern

Some vehicles may have been rushed to the front in Olivgrün base coat only, to be camouflaged by the units receiving them.

Snow Camouflage
Heeresmitteilung 1941, Nr. 1128 of 18th November 1941 regulated the application of snow camouflage to vehicles operating in Norway, Finland, and Russia. White camouflage paste was to be applied over the Panzergrau base coat, to be washed off again with fuel when the snow melted. However, supply problems on the Eastern Front were so severe that this instruction could not be followed. Replacement vehicles, and divisions newly deployed to the front were painted as required, but units already engaged had to use lime wash to camouflage their vehicles.

Sources

   1. THOMAS L. JENTZ & HILARY LOUIS DOYLE. PANZER TRACTS No.1-2 - Panzerkampfwagen I - Kl.Pz.Bef.Wg. to VK 18.01. Boyds, MD : Panzer Tracts, 2002.
   2. BRUCE CULVER & RICHARD MURPHY. Panzer Colors I, II, & III - Camouflage of the German Panzer Forces 1939-45. Carrollton: Squadron/Signal Publications, Inc.,
   3. RAL COLOUR CONVERSION TABLE. http://miniatures.de...al-farben.html. Retrieved 08/28/2006 - http://www.miniature...-wehrmacht.html
   4. PANZER WORLD http://www.panzerworld.net/  - http://www.panzerworld.net/colours
   5. STUG III http://stugiii.com/g...camouflage.html

You can found a RAL color palette reference here: http://www.polycomp.nl/ral.htm

For informations and reference about the german panzer divisions insignia see: http://www.panther19...uppe/DivAbz.htm
or http://freeforumzone...k/D9131825.html

[/spoiler]

 

 

 

From where I am standing...it is pretty much obvious that RAL7021 was indeed the colour they used initially as base coating. But let me know if this suffices or not.

 

 

 

 

I would also like to ad this one - curtesy of Juliet_Six - illustrating how it currently looks ingame...and how it more realistically should look:

Okay I just made some screenshots to illustrate your point in game.

 

This is a Hetzer using current German Dunkelgrau camo in Warthunder (RGB color: ~80, ~80, ~80)

[spoiler]

mOP5y0F.jpg

[/spoiler]

This is a Hetzer using RAL 7021 Dunkelgrau camo in Warthunder (RGB color: 46, 50, 52)

[spoiler]

cP2dgac.jpg

[/spoiler]

The position in which I took the screenshots wasnt ideal, I can repeat it later in a better spot but first more important stuff, lunch

 

 

 

Now I don't know if the developers know about the RAL scheme (but then, if you are texturing german tanks...how could you not?) but maybe they should also check all the other colours, altough dark yellow and dark green do not look to much off.

 

But the dark grey....that is REALLY.....well..."artistic licence" to remain polite.

KnightoftheAbyss (Posted )

Your report has been actioned and sent to the Developers for their consideration.
Please visit the report over the next week and provide any feedback requested.
Thanks
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That is what it is worth, but I think the OP want to empahasize the fact that default German tank would look like this as per 1939:

Panzer-III-WWII-Nazi-Tank-Title.jpg

 

Even though the tank is well exposed to the sun, we can see that it is darker than the actual color scheme in WT

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http://www.stugiii.com/germanvehiclecamouflage.html

Sites sources

  1. THOMAS L. JENTZ & HILARY LOUIS DOYLE. PANZER TRACTS No.1-2 - Panzerkampfwagen I - Kl.Pz.Bef.Wg. to VK 18.01. Boyds, MD : Panzer Tracts, 2002.
  2. BRUCE CULVER & RICHARD MURPHY. Panzer Colors I, II, & III - Camouflage of the German Panzer Forces 1939-45. Carrollton: Squadron/Signal Publications, Inc.,
  3. RAL COLOUR CONVERSION TABLE. http://miniatures.de/html/ita/colour-ral-farben.html. Retrieved 08/28/2006
  4. PANZER WORLD http://www.panzerworld.net/

 

 

 

 

Camouflage for the European theater

Two-Tone Disruptive: 1935 - July 1940

[spoiler]berlin-may-1945-0022.jpg[/spoiler]

 

Grey: July 1940 - October 1942

[spoiler]Panzer_38%28t%29_Ausf._S.jpg[/spoiler]

 

Dark Yellow: October 1942 ( would say this is technically correct in-game because lighting has a real effect on its appearance)

[spoiler]Panzer_IV_Ausf._H_Ej%C3%A9rcito_espa%C3%[/spoiler]

 

Three color Disruptive February 1943 - ~August 1944

[spoiler]

400_StuG_Replica.JPG

[/spoiler]

 

----3 tone Ambush----

Disk Camouflage (MAN and MNH. MNH's was referred to as the "corn chip"): August 1944 - ~September 1944

Ambush Camouflage (Daimler-Benz): August 1944 - October 1944

 

[spoiler]

 

MAN:

StuG-ambush-camo.jpg

MNH:

Hinterhalt-41.jpg

DB:

ambush.jpg

[/spoiler]

 

 

What ever paint we've got available camouflage (4 available tones + Oxiderot primer. RAL 7028 Dunkelgelb, RAL 7021 Dunkelgrau, RAL 6003 Olivgrun, RAL 8017 Rotbraun (Schokoladenbraun):  September 1944 - December 1944

[spoiler]

4755665039_72e55fe52f_m.jpg

251color.jpg

[/spoiler]

 

3 Tone Disruptive, Returning to a previous camouflage (Olivgrun, Rotbraun, Dunkelgelb) December 1944 - End of WW2?

[spoiler]

WWII_German_Tank.jpg

[/spoiler]

 

note: Some units specialized their tanks camouflage much like the Luftwaffe did. These images above are camouflages only for units operating in the European theater and does not include every specialized camouflage used, this also neglects the Russian Front and the Africa Operations

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Hi Bombasticus,  (Thanks others for your input)

                        We roll this game out to a very wide variety of computers with widely varied capabilities.  Whilst newer graphics machines could render this colour (RAL 7021) fine, older machines will tend to render it darker and without as much contrast.  Therefore the colour would merge into the background  (from a graphical perspective).  We already have several graphics issues related to older machines.   Hope that explains what I meant.

 

I would have had about 25 night games in the past year!  One I even submitted a screenshot to the competition for.  So they are more frequent than you possibly have encountered.  I know that Emperor_Tiberius is the same, he has had very few night games too and often remarks how many the rest of us get.  Just the 'luck of the draw' I guess.

 

As i said previously, all I wanted was a reference that was from the Wehrmacht (or other German military reference).  We have references that indicate that not only was RAL 7021 used but also RAL 7016, (a much lighter grey colour) which was widely used by the Luftwaffe being used by Wehrmacht units when the RAL 7021 colour was in short supply. ( http://www.kfzderwehrmacht.de/Hauptseite_deutsch/Verschiedenes/Farbanstrich/Dunkelgraue_Anstriche/dunkelgraue_anstriche.html )

 

No one is disputing what you are saying, we simply point out (as we often do) that War Thunder is a computer game.  Thus sometimes issues have a computer technical perspective that must over-ride 'historical accuracy'.  I imagine there is some reason why the tanks were coloured the way they are.  I also note that 'the other game' doesn't use RAL 7021 for their German vehicles either and also uses a lighter colour grey.   I have no idea why the current colour was selected and others rejected.

 

As I said, I am more than happy to refer this issue to the Developers.  This is (and was) their decision.

 

Cheers,

 

KotA

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Hello!
        Thank you for your help improving the game.  

 

Your information has been forwarded to the developers and the tracking number is:  ID:0028613

This thread will remain unlocked for one week (7 days) so that anyone with additional information\evidence\examples will have a place to post.  
After this time the report will remain active but will be archived.

It will also serve as a place where the developers will post questions for you to answer so please keep up to date here.
 

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First I'd like to post two additional very informative websites about german camouflage with references to Doyle and Jentz and multiple others. Very comprehensive, complete and interesting:

 

http://www.panzerworld.com/german-armor-camouflage

http://www.missing-lynx.com/panzer_facts.htm

 

 

 

 

Hi Bombasticus,  (Thanks others for your input)

                        We roll this game out to a very wide variety of computers with widely varied capabilities.  Whilst newer graphics machines could render this colour (RAL 7021) fine, older machines will tend to render it darker and without as much contrast.  Therefore the colour would merge into the background  (from a graphical perspective).  We already have several graphics issues related to older machines.   Hope that explains what I meant.

 

I see, thanks for the explanation. To be honest...I didn't think this could be a problem since even older graphic cards work with 16 bit colours at least. But wouldn't this problem not also apply to the very dark brown and very dark green of the US/USSR tanks? (who indeed blend much better into the background than german tanks...which is arguable the point of the colourscheme.)

 

 


No one is disputing what you are saying, we simply point out (as we often do) that War Thunder is a computer game.  Thus sometimes issues have a computer technical perspective that must over-ride 'historical accuracy'.  I imagine there is some reason why the tanks were coloured the way they are.  I also note that 'the other game' doesn't use RAL 7021 for their German vehicles either and also uses a lighter colour grey.   I have no idea why the current colour was selected and others rejected.

 

Sure I get that. Maybe you could look at it also as a balancing question. I recently started leveling US vehicles in RB and I noticed that low tier german tanks are just much more easily spotted than US/USSR vehicles, simply because they are so bright. So that should also be a factor imho. (As for the "other" game...haven't played it in years but from what I have seen is that the new HD tanks got the right dark grey colour. I assume somenoe pointed the error out there as well. That being said..Warthunder shouldn't take so many cues from them, frontal transmission fires etc. eerhm cough cough;))

 

 

 

Hello!
        Thank you for your help improving the game.  

 

Your information has been forwarded to the developers and the tracking number is:  ID:0028613

This thread will remain unlocked for one week (7 days) so that anyone with additional information\evidence\examples will have a place to post.  
After this time the report will remain active but will be archived.

It will also serve as a place where the developers will post questions for you to answer so please keep up to date here.
 

 

Thank you for your efforts. Much appreciated!

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