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ULQ Advantages/Disadvantages discussion


Admiral_Obvious
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I'm asking because I thought they were going to add it along with the general foliage improvements and optimization.

I run (probably) the lowest spec system here, and when playing this patch, was pleased to see my frame rate consistently above 40 in GF, even with this supposed "ground deformation" feature which was implemented in this patch.

It seems that instead of implementing the ULQ foliage, they lowered the render distance, which a few people suggested. This works to a certain extent, but I can still "see through bushes", as well as the geometry of vehicles at extreme ranges (+1.5km). The game still looks barren, but the fog is much thicker, even on "clear weather" maps

Overall I'm happy with the improvements in this category so far, but I'm a little disappointed that the low quality foliage wasn't added instead.

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Now that you're implementing the "no markers" in SB standard battles, you really need to focus on the Ultra_Low graphics exploit.

Yes, it IS an exploit.

It is used by many people who have computers that can handle playing the game on higher settings, but becuase it gives quite an advantage, they play with it enabled.

There have been many suggestions on how to fix this.

You could simply not allow players who use Ultra_Low to play simbattles, which IMHO would be fair. If you're playing arcade or ralistic you have the enemies marked anyway, so a bit of foliage won't stop you from spotting them. But in SB with no markers, it is a gamechanger.

You could also simply implement a check for enabling the option where the game checks what graphics card you have, and if it is a card that [i]should[/i] be able to handle the game on at least "low", then the option is simply grayed out. (like it is in the launcher, I can't pick it there, but I can pick it in-game).
That way, the people who truly [i]need [/i]the option can use it, but the ones who don't are unable to exploit it.

Or you could implement ultra low-res 2d sprites that simply block the area where brush and foliage would normally be in the game, thus ensuring that nobody gets an advantage by picking Ultra_Low.
The sprites don't have to be pretty, just functional X shaped 2d sprites that block the view. Sure, it'll look ugly, but that doesn't matter if you're playing on Ultra_Low anyway.

I'm talking about flat 2d sprites like these:

[img]http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3707/12565803365_c6197ec0ac_b.jpg[/img]

They don't even have to be as pretty as those, just blocks of green to block the view.
These are flat 2d sprites in the game I've screenshotted. They turn with the camera as you spin around.

But either way, you really need to do something about this because it's driving players away.
Alot of the more notable Youtube personalities that play the game are already very upset about it and have commented on it repeatedly.
It's bringing bad press for people looking to play the game.
I can only speak for my clan, but half of them have decided not to play the game for this reason alone.
They consider it (fairly, if you ask me) almost as if the game had a built-in wallhack feature that players were free to use if they want to.

Bonus: Another image from an earlier version of the above screenshotted game, this one from 2002. Note how you can see that the sprites are applied in an X shape (seen from above) that follows the players view at all times.
[spoiler][img]http://img2.brothergames.com/screenshots/softimage/c/combat_mission_ii-_barbarossa_to_berlin_patch_1.01_-_1.02-289529-1253173953.jpeg[/img][/spoiler]


For full disclosure, I should say that I have recently started using Ultra_Low because I don't want to suffer from any more "impossible" shots from people that couldn't see me on my screen, but when I look at the replay in Ultra_Low, I can see that I'm wide open to their view.

So until Gainjin fixes this I'm going to abuse it, because to me it's either that or not play the game at all. (and it was a tough call, I can tell you.) Edited by galakty
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I'm curious as to what the actual problem is, since I don't play ground forces- but my suggestion is, until it's illegal, it's allowed, no matter what

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There have been many suggestions on how to fix this.

Correction: There have been many suggestions to throw out the players who need ULQ.  Despite the fact that Gaijin has stated they're working on a fix that would satisfy everyone, you people keep creating these threads

 

 

You could simply not allow players who use Ultra_Low to play simbattles, which IMHO would be fair. If you're playing arcade or ralistic you have the enemies marked anyway, so a bit of foliage won't stop you from spotting them. But in SB with no markers, it is a gamechanger.

Such fairness: Let's simply throw out everyone who can't use high end graphics.

 

 

You could also simply implement a check for enabling the option where the game checks what graphics card you have, and if it is a card that should be able to handle the game on at least "low", then the option is simply grayed out. (like it is in the launcher, I can't pick it there, but I can pick it in-game).
That way, the people who truly need the option can use it, but the ones who don't are unable to exploit it.

I'll give you points for not saying they should kill the potatoes this time.  I'll have to look to be certain, but this was brought up before. A player responded that there are still ways to trick the system, and listed possible ways it could be done.  In short, it's not as effective as it sounds.

 

 


Or you could implement ultra low-res 2d sprites that simply block the area where brush and foliage would normally be in the game, thus ensuring that nobody gets an advantage by picking Ultra_Low.
The sprites don't have to be pretty, just functional X shaped 2d sprites that block the view. Sure, it'll look ugly, but that doesn't matter if you're playing on Ultra_Low anyway.

I'm talking about flat 2d sprites like these:

 

-snip-

 

They don't even have to be as pretty as those, just blocks of green to block the view.
These are flat 2d sprites in the game I've screenshotted. They turn with the camera as you spin around.
 

Even 2d sprites will still eat up a lot of graphics.  When you run the game on a potato, every little bit helps.  On my original computer, I got only 8 FPS on minimum settings at first; when I changed my desktop background, it shot up to around 40 FPS.

 

Gaijin has stated that they intend to cannabilize graphics from other areas, and then they'll implement 2d bushes.  So can we please stop getting threads like this every couple of days? 

Edited by TheCeltic
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I'm curious as to what the actual problem is, since I don't play ground forces- but my suggestion is, until it's illegal, it's allowed, no matter what

 

Well, players using ULQ don't have any bushes displayed, pretty much.

In airplane terms, I guess it would be like if you could turn off clouds completely...

Would you consider that unfair?

Also, I'm not saying it's not allowed. I'm saying they need to fix it. Until then, I'm using it even though my game looks like shit because of it.

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For full disclosure, I should say that I have recently started using Ultra_Low because I don't want to suffer from any more "impossible" shots from people that couldn't see me on my screen, but when I look at the replay in Ultra_Low, I can see that I'm wide open to their view.

So until Gainjin fixes this I'm going to abuse it, because to me it's either that or not play the game at all. (and it was a tough call, I can tell you.)

 

So... you complain and then become part of the problem? 

 

The game is entirely playable on high settings with a few tweaks...

 

- No grass in optics

- No haze

- Grass/Tree render slider all the way off

 

It's a nice medium point between not being able to see through foliage and having your game look like crap.

 

I'm hoping they figure this out as well.

 

Edit - A bit of self promotion but I made a quick video with all of the differing graphics settings from the lowest to the highest and then the suggested settings above. Don't just jack all your settings to low - I compete just fine with the modified settings that I use.

Edited by Budikah
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[quote name="TheCeltic" post="4264049" timestamp="1425327378"]

Correction: There have been many suggestions to throw out the players who need ULQ. Despite the fact that Gaijin has stated they're working on a fix that would satisfy everyone, you people keep creating these threads

[color=#0000ff]Not true, at least two of the suggestions I just made have been made previously.[/color]

Such fairness: Let's simply throw out everyone who can't use high end graphics.

[color=#0000ff]High end graphics = anything above Ultra_Low quality now? That's fresh. We're talking about people who either have graphics cards that are 10 years old or who are using laptops designed for office use, not gaming. Don't give me that "it's elitist" schtick. I'm using a 6 year old computer that was "economy class" when I bought it and I can still play on low-medium settings. [/color]

I'll give you points for not saying they should kill the potatoes this time. I'll have to look to be certain, but this was brought up before. A [i]player[/i] responded that there are still ways to trick the system, and listed possible ways it could be done. In short, it's not as effective as it sounds.

[color=#0000ff]Well, it's not effective because it's not implemented.
I can just click the "enable old graphics card" option in graphics option and I'll have the Ultra_low settings. Hardly a "trick" in any way.[/color]


Even 2d sprites will still eat up a lot of graphics. When you run the on a potato, every little bit helps. On my original computer, I got only 8 FPS on minimum settings at first; when I changed my desktop background, it shot up to around 40 FPS.

[color=#0000ff]2d sprites at out to 300 meters wouldn't eat up that much. We're talking 8-bit sprites here. Ugly as all hell, but doing their job of obstructing the view.[/color]

Gaijin has stated that they intend to cannabilize graphics from other areas, and then they'll implement 2d bushes. So can we please stop getting threads like this every couple of days?

[color=#0000ff]Where did you hear that? All I've seen is speculation by players as to them implementing it because they implemented the fog to "improve the closer details for ultra low quality users".[/color][/quote]
Answers in blue because I couldn't be bothered splitting the quote.

[quote name="Budikah" post="4264052" timestamp="1425327402"]

So... you complain and then become part of the problem?

The game is entirely playable on high settings with a few tweaks...

- No grass in optics
- No haze
- Grass/Tree render slider all the way off

It's a nice medium point between not being able to see through foliage and having your game look like crap.

I'm hoping they figure this out as well.

Edit - A bit of self promotion but I made a [url="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a7M-FXVjCMw"]quick video[/url] with all of the differing graphics settings from the lowest to the highest and then the suggested settings above. Don't just jack all your settings to low - I compete just fine with the modified settings that I use.[/quote]

Yeah, I used to think that as well, but it's simply not true.

ULQ actually removes all bushes on all maps.
You should try your video again, but on Poland's graveyard or jungle instead. Kursk is really not a good map to do that stuff on.

And I become "part of the problem" because the problem is already large enough.
Judging from my poll on the forums (admittedly, not enough to make statistics viable), around 45% of the players use the exploit.
I'm not "part of the problem", I'm simply conforming be competetive. Edited by galakty
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 Kursk is really not a good map to do that stuff on.

Yeah, very true. My biggest regret with that video.

 

Either way, it's still possible to be very competitive in game without jacking them down low. We'll just have to wait and see what Gaijin plans on implementing - maybe it'll arrive with their vision/sight system that I keep hearing peeps about.

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Yeah, very true. My biggest regret with that video.

 

Either way, it's still possible to be very competitive in game without jacking them down low. We'll just have to wait and see what Gaijin plans on implementing - maybe it'll arrive with their vision/sight system that I keep hearing peeps about.

 

I disagree with you on the competetive part, but I really do hope they implement something to fix this.

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I disagree with you on the competitive part, but I really do hope they implement something to fix this.

 

Unsure if competitive was the right term to use. You can still carry a match in ASB/ARB with the settings that I use. I'm not arguing that it's ideal but it's the best compromise I could come up with that allowed for nice graphics and good visibility.

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Answers in blue because I couldn't be bothered splitting the quote.

Ok, so simply because I don't have a spare 1000+ bucks lying around to buy a top of the line gaming PC, I shouldn't be allowed to play sim? Yeah, how about no. While I, as someone who has no choice but to play on ultra low to get 30-50 FPS in tanks, hate the fact that it basically allows me to cheat, I'd prefer that to not being able to play at all. I love how everyone makes these threads, but nobody actually seems to care enough to ask us low-end players how we feel about the whole thing. It's just top-end players whining that we can't render their bushes without having to play at 20 or lower FPS. Even on ultra low, smoke, dust, and MG fire still often times will kill my FPS in sniper scope.

 

So... you complain and then become part of the problem? 

 

The game is entirely playable on high settings with a few tweaks...

 

- No grass in optics

- No haze

- Grass/Tree render slider all the way off

 

It's a nice medium point between not being able to see through foliage and having your game look like crap.

 

I'm hoping they figure this out as well.

 

Edit - A bit of self promotion but I made a quick video with all of the differing graphics settings from the lowest to the highest and then the suggested settings above. Don't just jack all your settings to low - I compete just fine with the modified settings that I use.

We have to deal with haze as well.

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Not true, at least two of the suggestions I just made have been made previously.

 

The majority of people who complain about this issue continually spout off the same nonsense:  Gaijin should just get rid of the ULQ settings.  If someone brings up the fact about how that would effectively cut off a fair percentage of players, then they get told, "To bad."

 

    High end graphics = anything above Ultra_Low quality now? That's fresh. We're talking about people who either have graphics cards that are 10 years old or who are using laptops designed for office use, not gaming. Don't give me that "it's elitist" schtick. I'm using a 6 year old computer that was "economy class" when I bought it and I can still play on low-medium settings.

 

Use some common sense:  I'm not going to say, "medium and high end graphics," when I can simply say, "high end graphics," and still get my point across.  If you prefer, I'll say non-ULQ from now on.  Regardless of what a player uses, if they're playing WT, they meet the original minimum requirements that the devs decided would be their low bar.  Raising the ULQ requirements is unnecessary and it would cut off a fair percentage of Gaijin's customers, which is a terrible idea.
   
Well, it's not effective because it's not implemented.
I can just click the "enable old graphics card" option in graphics option and I'll have the Ultra_low settings. Hardly a "trick" in any way   

 

To quote the player:
“Automatically detect and force graphic settings? Sure. We'll have the game launcher check and make sure that you aren't playing a video file or running a bitcoin mining program while you're playing the game, because this is one way to artificially gimp your system and force a ULQ setting by reducing available graphic resources.”

 

In short:  It would be extremely complicated and difficult, and would not be unbreachable.

 

2d sprites at out to 300 meters wouldn't eat up that much. We're talking 8-bit sprites here. Ugly as all hell, but doing their job of obstructing the view.

 

Again, low end computers.  I’m telling you: Every bit helps.  It doesn’t have to eat up 40 FPS to make a game unplayable.     

  

    Where did you hear that? All I've seen is speculation by players as to them implementing it because they implemented the fog to "improve the closer details for ultra low quality users".

 

< http://forum.warthunder.com/index.php?/topic/214300-in-development-improved-foliage/page-19 >

To quote Scarper:

 

Ultra Low Graphics - Long Range (unsure about distance) mist/fog being added to lower the advantage and allow improvement of closer graphics - watch this space!

 

What do you think that means!?  It's clear as crystal; why do people continue to act like it's some secret message?

Edited by TheCeltic
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Ok, so simply because I don't have a spare 1000+ bucks lying around to buy a top of the line gaming PC, I shouldn't be allowed to play sim? Yeah, how about no. While I, as someone who has no choice but to play on ultra low to get 30-50 FPS in tanks, hate the fact that it basically allows me to cheat, I'd prefer that to not being able to play at all. I love how everyone makes these threads, but nobody actually seems to care enough to ask us low-end players how we feel about the whole thing. It's just top-end players whining that we can't render their bushes without having to play at 20 or lower FPS. Even on ultra low, smoke, dust, and MG fire still often times will kill my FPS in sniper scope.

 

We have to deal with haze as well.

I love how potatoe computer users always throw out an abusrd figure like 1000-1500 for a computer to run this game on settings that aren't Ultra-low. I built my computer for a little over $600 2 years ago and it can run this game on max settings 60fps. You can build or buy a new pc for about $300 that will run this game on at least medium. And for the people that really do get such terrible FPS on Ultra-low, I just have to wonder if they even meet the minium requirements for the game. Anyway, the argument is and always has been that ALL SETTING SHOULD PROVIDE AN EQUAL PLAYING FIELD. If your computer can't handle the little extra effort that 2d sprite would require, maybe it is time to re-evaluate gaming as a hobby.

Edited by Grisle
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I love how potatoe computer users always throw out an abusrd figure like 1000-1500 for a computer to run this game on settings that aren't Ultra-low. I built my computer for a little over $600 2 years ago and it can run this game on max settings 60fps. You can build or buy a new pc for about $300 that will run this game on at least medium. And for the people that really do get such terrible FPS on Ultra-low, I just have to wonder if they even met the minium requirements for the game. Anyway the argument is and always has been that ALL SETTING SHOULD PROVIDE AN EQUAL PLAYING FIELD. If your computer can't handle the little extra effort that 2d sprite would require, maybe it is time to reevaluate gaming as a hobby.

Even still, I'm broke. 90% of the cash I get goes to food, housing, and school. I don't have a the 600-1500(Depending on what I want)to buy something like an Alienware, and I don't have the money or the knowledge to build my own. I don't mind the 2d sprites. What I do mind is what the OP's suggestion that people on ULQ be blocked completely from playing sim mode, simply because they can't upgrade to a higher end PC.

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Even still, I'm broke. 90% of the cash I get goes to food, housing, and school. I don't have a the 600-1500(Depending on what I want)to buy something like an Alienware, and I don't have the money or the knowledge to build my own. I don't mind the 2d sprites. What I do mind is what the OP's suggestion that people on ULQ be blocked completely from playing sim mode, simply because they can't upgrade to a higher end PC.


I can run the game on a 2 year old desktop from Best Buy that I got for $300 dollars. I stuck an $80 graphics card that was half off in there and voilà, works great.
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I can run the game on a 2 year old desktop from Best Buy that I got for $300 dollars.  I stuck an $80 graphics card that was half off in there and voila, works great

How many times do we have to say it:

 

Some of us cannot get a new computer.  Stop telling us to get a new computer.

Some of us will not get a new computer, because it's a bad investment.  Stop telling us to pay several hundred dollars, just because you want Gaijin to implement an unnecessary solution.

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I can run the game on a 2 year old desktop from Best Buy that I got for $300 dollars. I stuck an $80 graphics card that was half off in there and voilà, works great.

Huh. Well, I'll look into it when I have money to spare. But until I can, and it will likely be a while until then, it's not fair to me that I be blocked from a gamemode. I hope that you at least agree with that.

Edited by AncientRaig
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Mandatory.

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UdyPhdZLWmA

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How many times do we have to say it:

 

Some of us cannot get a new computer.  Stop telling us to get a new computer.

Some of us will not get a new computer, because it's a bad investment.  Stop telling us to pay several hundred dollars, just because you want Gaijin to implement an unnecessary solution.

So you like to game as a hobby but you don't like to spend money to support your hobby? Sounds like a classic case of wanting your cake and eating it too.

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I am of the opinion that if you can't use higher quality graphics then you shouldn't be forced to. If you have a high end graphics card and you use low quality graphics then you wasted money on that graphics card. Gaijin hopefully with implement the 2D sprite or some other fix. I have always used the highest possible graphics for my set up. For my desktop that is movie for my laptop that is medium. In my time with ground forces particularly the no marker events I feel that not many people actually abuse this.
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So you like to game as a hobby but you don't like to spend money to support your hobby?

Why should I spend $300 on a computer, when my computer does everything I need it to except play WT on high, and the new computer is solely to solve a problem that could very well be fixed another way?

 

And don't use the line: "If you aren't willing to buy a new computer, then obviously you don't spend on the game, therefore your opinion is irrelevant,"

 

I've said it before:  There's a difference between spending $300 on a new computer that is unnecessary, and spending the occasional $50 on the game.

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There's one thing I don't get. Why not use low-tech, 1990's solution, and for low detail foliage, use goddamn sprites.

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There's one thing I don't get. Why not use low-tech, 1990's solution, and for low detail foliage, use goddamn sprites.

 

because implementing low quality sprites into the game would take some work. 

 

on the other hand, repeating 'everything is fine, ULQ doesn't influence game that much' requires absolutely no work ...

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