BeZi

Battle of the Dukla Pass

Battle of the Dukla Pass  

117 members have voted

  1. 1. Would you like to see this map?

    • Yes
      113
    • No
      4


1280px-Dukla_Pass_battle_monument_2.jpg

 

Playing this operation on map "Carpathians" isn't a good idea... Maybe it can look a bit like a valley with road Svidnik-Barvinek in Zborov... But...

Why not to make a whole map of Battle of the Dukla Pass?

First problem may be airfields placement - one month before the battle germans has blown up Pustyny airfield (photo in spoiler with machines).

In September (when battle began) russians had captured it....

Anyway - what about missions?

For GF should be:

* Death Valley near Głojsce

* Defend of Dukla

* Czechoslovakian strike from Zyndranowa to Tylawa

* (Battle of the Dukla Pass, Barwinek - Vysny Komarnik road)

* Death Valley near Svidnik

 

Couldn't find any info about tanks going on hills (Probably few T-34 were supporting infantry)... I've only heard that there were Russian tanks on/in Cergowa - but cant find precise enough info to be sure - that they meant hill or village (more likely)

 

So:

Patryja (534), Chyrowa/Hyrowa (both names are used) and Cergowa hill were just used by artillery batteries.

There were many battles for Patryja... But were there any tanks? I've read and heard only about infantry units...

So... Time for some sources:

[spoiler]Polish /use translator plz/:

http://glojsce.pl/ro...z-dukielska.php

http://www.svidnik.s...acko-dukielska/

http://www.cergowa.p...dukla_walki.htm

http://pl.wikipedia....lsko-preszowska -> Slovakian version is much more accurate/detailed

http://tomek17071990...elska-1944.html - Description of that terrains today

http://www.dobroni.p...c-slowakow,5450

http://epkrspotters....iska-w-krosnie/

http://books.google....epage&q&f=false

http://www.dobroni.pl/rekonstrukcje,dukla-1944-bitwa-o-wolnosc-slowakow,5450 - maybe not a good source, but anyway nice description of russian movements, attacks etc.

English:

http://www.iabsi.com/gen/public/military__carpatho.htm <- more info in this post: http://forum.warthunder.com/index.php?/topic/210915-battle-of-the-dukla-pass/page-3#entry4643403

http://www.network54.com/Forum/47207/thread/1342541708/Panther+1st+PD - got here photo of Pz V from this Battle

Czechoslovakian:

http://cs.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karpatsko-dukelsk%C3%A1_operace

[hr]

Here's map of Głojsce and nearby terrains - http://glojsce.pl/img/mapka_glojsce.gif(taken from - http://glojsce.pl/historia.php, there's also posted a part of polish book about battles there). Link doesn't work - so after opening the link try to refresh site (F5) - should load then correctly

Russian map of front - http://glojsce.pl/im.../pelna_mapa.jpg

Some photos took on polish side: http://www.cergowa.pl/beskid_dukielski_miasto_dukla_walki_dolina_smierci.htm[/spoiler]

Macihnes which were fightin':

[spoiler]So (can't find any info about AAAs):

 

USSR:

T-70M (in WT is only T-70)

T-34/76 1942

T-34/85 D-5T and ZiS

IS-1

Su85

Can't remember - probably there weren't any IS tanks -  T-34/85 and Su85 has arrived in gaurdian units (cant find good translation for 'em) as reinforcements.

They came from Szklary, probably by Lubatowa (to Dukla)...

Units are anyway listed in sources above

Photos of IS-1 and T-34/85 with zis there:

[spoiler]

dolina_smierci_019.jpg

dolina_smierci_022.jpg

[/spoiler]

Some other photos of russian vehicles:

[spoiler]

14_DUKLA_2.jpg

 

14_DUKLA_3.jpg

 

14_DUKLA_5.jpg

[/spoiler]

 

Planes from 2nd air army (in polish: 2 Armia Lotnicza):

Ił2M3

Jak9 -> version with "big guns" - T, K etc. -> can't find info which versions... But anyway with 37 or 45mm guns

Douglas Boston -> To drop parachuters...

8th air army

Ił2M3

Po2 -> Communication

Ił-4

Ła7

Jak9/9k/9m/9t/9u

Jak3 (not P!) - Jaks to confirm!

18th air army

Ił4

And some transport planes like Li-2

 

Reich:

Tanks:

Pz III M or N

Pz IVJ, G (maybe H too)

StuG III G (StuG IV was also - cant remember which one)

Hetzer

Marder III

Panther ... -> No info about version, probably A //Got one photo: http://img140.imageshack.us/img140/5913/panther1stpd.jpg

Also parts of Wespe were found (but its not in WT, so no problem)

AAA - from WT most probably good will be Sdkfz. 6/2 -> There were found many parts of halftrack chassises

 

Machines of: 1, 8, 24 Pz.Div, 68, 75, 96, 208, 168, 254, 357, 356 ID, 101 Jg.Div, 1 Ski.Jg.Div part 544 and 545 GD (and few smaller)

 

Planes:

Here starts the problems... On 11 VIII 1944 germans had blew up Pustyny airfield (near Krosno)...

On 11 IX 1944 russians captured it.   So it's a lil' time for "What  if":

http://img.webme.com...isko1944rok.bmp

Airfield in April '44

But in 1944 there were:

Stab/KG.27  „Boelcke”, I./KG.27, II/ KG.27„Boelcke”, 14. ( Eismeer)/KG27, KGr.100 -> He111H

10 ( Pz ) /SG3 -> Junkers Ju87 D/G

I./SG.77 -> FW190F

Stab NAGr.2, NAGr.2  2 Staffel -> BF109G 

5(H)/AGr.12 -> FW189 (not in WT)[/spoiler]

 

Maps-photos of terrain at Slovakian side of border:

[spoiler]

r]dukla%20pass%2049.jpggtuPAuP.jpgtxWeLTK.jpg[/spoiler]

Polish article about Pz IV from monument near Svidnik: http://mojebieszczad...rawdziwe-dzieje
 

 

My other posts about this battle:

http://forum.warthunder.com/index.php?/topic/181996-creating-list-of-possible-planes-changes-in-events-you-may-help-2/page-6#entry4029793

http://forum.warthunder.com/index.php?/topic/208178-white-w0lfs-lair-questions-about-tank-missions-and-maps-allowed/page-5#entry4038250

http://forum.warthunder.com/index.php?/topic/109214-bitwy-prawie-historyczne-20/

 

:salute:

@EDIT: 27.01 - fixed link to map of Głojsce and nearby terrains, still updating list of machines

03.02 - added photos and map of slovakian side

28.02 - corrected info, about t-34, which probably stroke at hill 534, supporting infantry

12.03 - added photo and link to discussion about Pz V

28.03 - updated this post with links/sources from other posts (added while I was Read Only)

04.05 - confirmed Ła7

18.05 - fixed few spelling mistakes, added link to more sources from iabsi.com ([url=http://forum.warthunder.com/index.php?/topic/210915-battle-of-the-dukla-pass/page-3#entry4643403]this post[/url]) next to the point with link to one of articles there

Edited by BeZi
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It is nice that we have events like that.. But they are failure due to maps. I know it is not easy to make a map representing real battleground, but you could take some time and make one map from each war represented (one Africa map, one Bastogne map, etc). Maybe then tweak them up, fix bugs and put it into randoms. Good examples of this are events from Africa. All of them (or most) were in Jungle map.

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Yeah... Especially that current map "Poland" isn't as good as could be...

Region of Dukla-Svidnik is IMO much more interesting - many forests, empty valleys and hills... Small villages and 3-4 bigger towns in that region.

This would give us wery interesting gameplay, allowing to use many different tactics.

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Jak9 -> version with "big guns" - T, K etc. -> can't find info which versions... But anyway with 37 or 45mm guns

 

I'd guess 37mm as there were not that many Yaks-9K because 45mm cannon was considered very unreliable, and wasn't that much of a difference when it came to destroying ground/naval targets.

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Ok... so i've done some research... by the time of the battle 8th air army had:

 

a) 10th fighter air Stalingrad corps :

  • 10th guards fighter division
  • 15th guards fighter division
  • (probably) 400th communication aviation division (Po-2)

 

b) 321st bomber divison 

  • 22nd  guards night bomber aviation regiment (from what i understood they were mostly involved in night reconnaissance and night bombing missions)

 

c) (not confirmed, probably they weren't even there by the time of the battle) 7th assault aviation Sevastopol corps

 

 

@edit: more accurate info

Edited by Wyidealizowany
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Updated first post.

@up: Tell me more when ya are sure

Edited by BeZi
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For the record the T-70M is the more formal designation for the T-70. The first batch of T-70s were built with a GAZ-202 automotive engine on each side of the hull, one driving each track. This arrangement was seen to be a serious problem, even before the first tanks were issued. It was quickly redesigned as the T-70M (although it continued to be referred to as just the T-70), with the engines in-line on the right side of the tank and a normal transmission and differential. The conical turret was replaced by one more easily welded out of plate armour, and moved to the left side of the hull.

I think that the one we have is the T-70M, though it'd be cool if they added the first batch as the T-70 and rename the current one as the T-70M

The su-76M has the M because it had the improved engine configuration of the T-70M, and also had the removal of the back of the casemate (the original Su-76s had an enclosed casemate.)
But I am getting off topic.

I would love this map. Edited by Brogan1
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Thx for info - always aprreciated, to learn sth new...

I knew only: that the difference was new turret and stronger engine...

 

Anyway - if you want to help and support this idea - plz make some sigs, put links to that thread etc.

The more poeple will see it - the better!

:salute:

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Bump. I want this map badly. Really the biggest problem I have with GF at the moment is the limited pool of maps there are. There needs to be new maps added regularly, or have massive maps that can be used in multiple spots.
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That's why I suggest this map ;)

 

We need to more people hear about it, and vote here.

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Actually based on the date the battle took place, the Panther variant the Germans probably would've been using would've been Ausf. Ds, not Ausf. As.

Nope. D version was fighting in summer '43 - eg Battle of Kursk.

Here was A or G - A is more probably, cuz production of G has started in March '44 (but on the other hand, russians had some t34/85 ZiS which were also produced since march '44...)

Can't find photos of Pz V from this battle... I know only about some parts of wrecks (mostly chasis, tracks)

Only photo which was named "Destroyed Pz V in Polany" was... Pz IVJ

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I'm glad to see that some ppl are interested in...

But after 2 weeks I'd like to see about 350 votes - not just 57 :/

 

@EDIT: It's about 60 people who voted...

Tell about this suggestion to your friends!

Even to few of... For 4 friends per voter - it's 240 more people... Al in all 300 - votes.

Not enough?

Together we can show GJ, that we want this operation as location (series of maps) in WT...

Edited by BeZi
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so, is this basically forcing a head on battle? could be fun

It depends from scenario...

I've suggested some things...

IMO attack from Zyndranowa Valley could just look like: Germans in defence, Czechoslovakians must reach "exit zone"... Instead of killing all Germans.

Death Valley near Głojsce would be most interesting - same as defend of Dukla...

Death Valley would give us very wide valley, with few trees, many fields and some houses and 1-2 small villages. On one side would be hills with very thick forests, while second side will be grassy hills... It'd lead (with air support) to very interesting duels, with many possible tactics, flanking, suprises in villages etc.

Defend of Dukla will give us nice CQC combat in small town...

 

So basically it forces thinking over battlefield - there will be thousand of possible tactics to play  :Ds

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