Conraire

(Updated)Penetration of most US Guns Currently in game

Update for Dec, 5, 2016. 
Terminal Ballistic Data volume III
AD 301343
Hunnicutt's books on US tanks
WW2 Ballistics and Gunnery

Situation Report 34 (Archives pull)
Some penetration numbers are demarre calculated based on ballistic limit penetration ability at a given range or velocity.

 

Hunnicuts Abrams / British Attache Report / The Ardennes   /   FM 6-40 1945  /  Situation report 34

BimKInQ.jpg         lGlfwoO.jpg         QzXP9uC.jpg    EUt9o25.jpg      dUBWFb3.jpg

 

37mm Guns

 

37mm M51B1 APCBC-T (2900ft/s) from 37mm Gun M3 or M6..

From FM 6-40 1945 vs Vertical RHA
500yds    = 2.9in (73.66mm)
1000yds  = 2.6in (66.04mm)
1500yds  = 2.2in (55.88mm)
 
From World War II Ballistics Armor and Gunnery vs Vertical RHA
100yds    = 78mm
500yds    = 69mm
1000yds  = 59mm
1500yds  = 51mm
2000yds  = 43mm
 
From Hunnicutt's Sherman book M51 from Gun M3 or M6 at 2900ft/s vs 30deg RHA
500yds    = 2.1in (53mm)
1000yds  = 1.8in (45mm)
1500yds  = 1.6in (40mm)
2000yds  = 1.4in (35mm)
 
From British Attache Report 2473-44 M51 2900ft/s vs 30deg RHA
0yds        = 65mm
500yds    = 57mm
1000yds  = 50mm
1500yds  = 43mm
2000yds  = 36mm
 
From TBD Volume 3 M51b1 2900ft/s vs RHA
XjsP0jE.jpg
37mm M51b1
Angle   10m   100m   500m   1000m   1500m   2000m
          76mm   75mm    71mm     63mm      54mm      47mm
30°        62mm   61mm    53mm     45mm      38mm      31mm
45°        40mm   39mm    33mm     29mm      25mm      20mm
60°        23mm   22mm    21mm     20mm      19mm      17mm

 

37mm M74 AP-T (2900ft/s) from 37mm Gun M3 or M6

From World War II Ballistics Armor and Gunnery vs Vertical RHA
100yds    = 89mm
500yds    = 69mm
1000yds  = 50mm
1500yds  = 37mm
2000yds  = 27mm
 

 

57mm Guns

 

57mm M86 APCBC-HE-T From 57mm AT Gun M1 (Gun used in the T48 GMC) 42Gram HE Filler

From FM 6-40 1945 vs Vertical RHA
500yds    = 4.0in (101.6mm)
1000yds  = 3.5in (88.9mm)
1500yds  = 3.1in (78.74mm)
 
From World War II Ballistics Armor and Gunnery vs Vertical RHA
100yds    = 110mm
500yds    = 98mm
1000yds  = 85mm
1500yds  = 73mm
2000yds  = 64mm
 
From Hunnicutt's Sherman book, From 57mm 6pdr Gun Mk.V or M1 vs 30deg RHA
500yds    = 3.2in (81mm)
1000yds  = 2.9in (73mm)
1500yds  = 2.5in (63mm)
2000yds  = 2.2in (35mm)
 
From British Attache Report 2473-44 M86 2700ft/s vs 30deg RHA
0yds        = 95mm
500yds    = 87mm
1000yds  = 80mm
1500yds  = 73mm
2000yds  = 67mm
 
From TBDv3

fFzFCc8.jpg
57mm M86 APCBC-HE-T
Angle    10m      100m      500m   1000m   1500m   2000m
        113mm   109mm   100mm   87mm    76mm     64mm
30°       89mm     86mm     80mm    69mm    62mm     53mm
45°       58mm     57mm     52mm    46mm    41mm     35mm
60°       39mm     38mm     36mm    32mm    29mm     26mm
 
57mm M70 AP-T From 57mm AT Gun M1 or 6pd Mk V (2950ft/s)

From Tm 9-1901 vs Vertical RHA
1000yds  = 3.4in (86mm)
 
From World War II Ballistics Armor and Gunnery vs Vertical RHA
100yds    = 135mm
500yds    = 112mm
1000yds  = 89mm
1500yds  = 70mm
2000yds  = 55mm
 
From TBDv3

8op8VMY.jpg
57mm M70 AP-T
Angle    10m      100m      500m    1000m    1500m    2000m
        139mm   134mm   111mm     85mm     61mm     43mm
30°      105mm   101mm    85mm      67mm     49mm     35mm
45°         ~              ~            ~            ~             ~             ~
60°        53mm     50mm    40mm      29mm     19mm      9mm

 

 
75mm Guns

 

75mm M61A1 APCBC-HE-T From 75mm Gun M3, or M6 (2030ft/s) 65gram HE filler

From FM 6-40 1945 vs Vertical RHA
500yds    = 3.3in (83.82mm)
1000yds  = 3.0in (76.2mm)
1500yds  = 2.7in (68.56mm)
 
From World War II Ballistics Armor and Gunnery vs Vertical RHA
100yds    = 88mm
500yds    = 81mm
1000yds  = 73mm
1500yds  = 65mm
2000yds  = 59mm
 
From Hunnicutt's Sherman book vs 30deg RHA
500yds    = 2.6in (66mm)
1000yds  = 2.4in (60mm)
1500yds  = 2.2in (55mm)
2000yds  = 2.0in (50mm)
 
From British Attache Report 2473-44 M61 2030ft/s vs 30deg RHA
0yds        = 76mm
500yds    = 68mm
1000yds  = 60mm
1500yds  = 52mm
2000yds  = 47mm
 
From TBDv3, and 60deg calculated from a Ballistic limit value of 1.5in at 2047ft/s vs RHA

tFjMkGu.jpg
75mm M61 APCBC-HE-T
Angle    10m      100m      500m    1000m    1500m    2000m
         91mm     88mm     82mm     75mm      67mm     59mm
30°       71mm     69mm     65mm     59mm      54mm     49mm
45°       52mm     51mm     48mm     44mm      40mm     36mm
60°       38mm     37mm     34mm     31mm      28mm     24mm
 
75mm M72 AP-T Solid Shot from Guns M3 and M6

From Tm 9-1901 vs Vertical RHA
1000yds  = 3.1in (78mm)
 
From World War II Ballistics Armor and Gunnery vs Vertical RHA
100yds    = 109mm
500yds    = 92mm
1000yds  = 76mm
1500yds  = 62mm
2000yds  = 51mm
 
From Hunnicutt's Sherman Book vs 30deg RHA
500yds    = 3.0in (76mm)
1000yds  = 2.5in (63mm)
1500yds  = 2.0in (50mm)
2000yds  = 1.7in (43mm)
 
From The Ardennes, 1944-1945 Book, vs 30deg RHA
100m    = 88mm
500m    = 73mm
1000m  = 59mm
1500m  = 47mm
2000m  = 38mm

 

From Document armament for future tanks or similar combat vehicles.

75mm M72 AP-T
Angle  1000yd    2000yd
          89mm      60mm
30°        61mm      --mm
55°        38mm      --mm
60°        33mm      --mm
 
75mm M66 HEAT-T from Howitzer M1, M2, M3

From FM 6-40 1945 vs Vertical RHA
All Ranges = 4-4.5in (101.6mm - 114.3mm)
 
From Hunnicutt's Stuart Book vs 30deg RHA
All Ranges = 3.6in (91mm)

 

From Document armament for future tanks or similar combat vehicles.

75mm M66 HEAT
Angle  1000yd    2000yd
          91mm      91mm
30°        78mm      78mm
55°        53mm      53mm
60°        45mm      45mm

 

 

3" and 76mm Guns

 

76mm M62A1 APCBC-HE-T From 3inch Gun M7 or 76mm Gun M1, M1A1-C 65gram HE filler (Note: M62A1 is standard M62 with an improved base fuze)

From FM 6-40 1945 vs Vertical RHA
500yds    = 4.7in (119.38mm)
1000yds  = 4.3in (109.22mm)
1500yds  = 3.9in (99.06mm)
 
From World War II Ballistics Armor and Gunnery vs Vertical RHA
100yds    = 125mm
500yds    = 116mm
1000yds  = 106mm
1500yds  = 97mm
2000yds  = 89mm
 
From Hunnicutt's Sherman Book vs 30deg RHA
500yds    = 3.7in (92mm)
1000yds  = 3.5in (88mm)
1500yds  = 3.2in (82mm)
2000yds  = 3.0in (76mm)
 
From British Attache Report 2473-44 M62 at 2600ft/s vs 30deg RHA
0yds        = 108mm
500yds    = 98mm
1000yds  = 90mm
1500yds  = 81mm
2000yds  = 74mm
 
From TBDv3

44pn9ED.jpg
76mm/3" M62 APCBC-HE-T
Angle    10m      100m      500m    1000m    1500m    2000m
         127mm  125mm   118mm   106mm     95mm     85mm
30°        97mm    96mm     92mm     86mm      80mm     73mm
45°        72mm    71mm     67mm     62mm      56mm     50mm
60°        49mm    48mm     45mm     42mm      38mm     33mm

 76mm M62A1 APCBC-HE-T From 76mm Gun M1A2 65gram HE filler (different barrel rifling 1:32 than the 1:40 of the 76mm Gun M1A1)

From FM 6-40 1945 vs Vertical RHA
500yds    = 4.7in (119.38mm)
1000yds  = 4.4in (111.76mm)
1500yds  = 4.1in (104.14mm)
 
From TBDv3
 76mm M62 APCBC-HE-T
Angle    10m      100m      500m    1000m    1500m    2000m
         127mm  125mm   119mm   109mm    100mm     90mm
30°        97mm    96mm     92mm     87mm      82mm     76mm
45°        72mm    71mm     68mm     63mm      58mm     53mm
60°        49mm    48mm     46mm     43mm      39mm     35mm

 

From Document armament for future tanks or similar combat vehicles.

76mm M62 APCBC-HE-T
Angle  1000yd    2000yd
         109mm      96mm
30°        89mm       78mm
55°        53mm       38mm
60°        48mm       33mm


76mm M79 AP-T From 76mm Guns M1, M1A1, M1A2, and 3inch Guns M5 and M7

From Tm 9-1901 vs Vertical RHA
1000yds  = 4.5in (114mm)
 
From World War II Ballistics Armor and Gunnery vs Vertical RHA
100yds    = 154mm
500yds    = 131mm
1000yds  = 107mm
1500yds  = 88mm
2000yds  = 72mm
 
From Hunnicutt's Sherman Book vs 30deg RHA
500yds    = 4.3in (109mm)
1000yds  = 3.6in (92mm)
1500yds  = 3.0in (76mm)
2000yds  = 2.5in (64mm)
 
From The Ardennes, 1944-1945 Book, vs 30deg RHA
100m    = 124mm
500m    = 104mm
1000m  = 83mm
1500m  = 67mm
2000m  = 54mm
 
DeMarre calculated from Ballistic limit velocities, plugged into Terminal Velocity graph for the shot at given ranges.  60deg pen is a bit lower than it should be, given the ability to Penetrate the T-34-85 Glacis at 1100m according to Yugo tests.  The vertical plate pen in the real world would of been effected by Shatter gap, which caused it to perform not much better than M62 vs high hardness plate of the Panther or Tiger.
76mm/3" M79 AP-T
Angle    10m      100m      500m    1000m    1500m    2000m
         157mm  152mm   133mm   111mm     91mm     75mm
30°       125mm  121mm   106mm    89mm      73mm     60mm
55°        66mm    64mm     56mm     46mm      38mm     32mm
60°        62mm    60mm     53mm     44mm      36mm     30mm

 

From Document armament for future tanks or similar combat vehicles.

76mm M79 AP-T, From 76mm M1A2 Gun
Angle  1000yd    2000yd
         111mm      81mm
30°        -- mm       63mm
55°        58mm       40mm
60°        50mm       33mm

 
76mm M93 HVAP-T From 76mm Guns M1, M1A1, M1A2, and 3inch Guns M5 and M7

From FM 6-40 1945 vs Vertical RHA
500yds    = 8.4in (213.36mm)
1000yds  = 7.3in (185.43mm)
1500yds  = 6.2in (157.48mm)
 
From World War II Ballistics Armor and Gunnery vs Vertical RHA
100yds    = 239mm
500yds    = 208mm
1000yds  = 175mm
1500yds  = 147mm
2000yds  = 124mm
 
From Hunnicutt's Sherman Book vs 30deg RHA
500yds    = 6.2in (157mm)
1000yds  = 5.3in (135mm)
1500yds  = 4.6in (116mm)
2000yds  = 3.9in (98mm)
 
From British Attache Report 2473-44 M93/T4 at 3400ft/s vs 30deg RHA
0yds        = 176mm
500yds    = 150mm
1000yds  = 132mm
1500yds  = 112mm
2000yds  = 97mm

From TBDv3, 60deg calculated from a known ability to penetrate T-34-85 Glacis at 1200m
53bxE46.jpg

76mm M93/T4 HVAP-T @ 3400ft/s
Angle    10m      100m      500m    1000m    1500m    2000m
         247mm  241mm   213mm   179mm   151mm    124mm
30°       182mm  177mm   156mm   130mm   109mm      91mm
55°         73mm    71mm     63mm     53mm     43mm      35mm
60°         63mm    62mm     55mm     47mm     41mm      34mm

From Situation Report No. 34
76mm T4/M93 HVAP-T @ 3400ft/s
Angle    0yds    500yds  1000yds  1500yds  2000yds
         246mm  213mm    185mm    157mm    134mm    
30°       182mm  155mm    132mm    116mm      99mm
45°       111mm    94mm      81mm      71mm      61mm

 

From Document armament for future tanks or similar combat vehicles.

76mm M93 HVAP-T @ 3400ft/s
Angle  1000yd    2000yd
         177mm    132mm
30°       134mm    101mm
55°        58mm       40mm
60°        50mm       35mm

 

76mm M319/T66 HVAP-T From 76mm Gun M32

 

From Document armament for future tanks or similar combat vehicles.

76mm M319/T66e4 HVAP-T @ 4125ft/s
Angle  1000yd    2000yd
         210mm    160mm
30°       167mm    119mm
55°         68mm      48mm
60°         58mm      38mm

 

76mm M331A2 HV-APDS-T From 76mm Gun M32

 

From Document armament for future tanks or similar combat vehicles.

76mm M331A2 HVAPDS-T @ 4125ft/s
Angle       1000yd      2000yd
0/90°         261mm      231mm
30/60°       193mm      170mm
55/35°         94mm        78mm
60/30°         73mm        61mm

 

 

90mm Guns

 

90mm M82 APCBC-HE-T 2670ft/s From 90mm Guns M1, M1A1, M2, and M3, 200gram HE filler

From Tm 9-1901 vs Vertical RHA
1000yds  = 5.5in (139mm)
 
From World War II Ballistics Armor and Gunnery vs Vertical RHA
100yds    = 164mm
500yds    = 150mm
1000yds  = 137mm
1500yds  = 125mm
2000yds  = 114mm
 
From Hunnicutt's Sherman Book vs 30deg RHA
500yds    = 4.7in (120mm)
1000yds  = 4.4in (112mm)
1500yds  = 4.1in (104mm)
2000yds  = 3.8in (96mm)
 
From British Attache Report 2473-44 M82 at 2600ft/s vs 30deg RHA
0yds        = 123mm
500yds    = 113mm
1000yds  = 105mm
1500yds  = 95mm
2000yds  = 87mm
 
From TBDv3, 60deg calculated from 2.25in at 2564ft/s ballistic limit
90mm M82 APCBC-HE-T Early
Angle    10m      100m      500m    1000m    1500m    2000m
         162mm  161mm   151mm   137mm   125mm    113mm
30°       128mm  127mm   120mm   110mm   101mm      93mm
55°        67mm    66mm     62mm     57mm      53mm      49mm
60°        60mm    59mm     55mm     52mm      48mm      45mm

90mm M82Late APCBC-HE-T 2800ft/s From 90mm Guns M1, M1A1, M2, M3 and M3A1, 140gram HE filler

From FM 6-40 1945 vs Vertical RHA
500yds    = 6.4in (162.56mm)
1000yds  = 6.0in (152.4mm)
1500yds  = 5.6in (142.24mm)
 
From World War II Ballistics Armor and Gunnery vs Vertical RHA
100yds    = 169mm
500yds    = 164mm
1000yds  = 151mm
1500yds  = 138mm
2000yds  = 127mm
 
From Hunnicutt's Sherman Book vs 30deg RHA
500yds    = 5.1in (129mm)
1000yds  = 4.8in (122mm)
1500yds  = 4.5in (114mm)
2000yds  = 4.2in (106mm)
 
From British Attache Report 2473-44 M82Early at 2800ft/s vs 30deg RHA
0yds        = 132mm
500yds    = 124mm
1000yds  = 119mm
1500yds  = 114mm
2000yds  = 99mm
 
From TBDv3, 60deg calculated from 2.25in at 2564ft/s ballistic limit
90mm M82 APCBC-HE-T Late
Angle    10m      100m      500m    1000m    1500m    2000m
         171mm  170mm   163mm   151mm   139mm    127mm
30°       135mm  134mm   128mm   120mm   112mm    104mm
55°        71mm    70mm     67mm     62mm      58mm      55mm
60°        65mm    64mm     61mm     56mm      52mm      49mm
 
From Situation Report No. 34
90mm M82 APCBC-T 2800ft/s
Angle    0yds    500yds  1000yds  1500yds  2000yds
         170mm  162mm    152mm    142mm    129mm    
30°       134mm  127mm    119mm     111mm    104mm
45°         94mm    89mm      83mm      78mm      71mm

 

90mm M82 APCBC-HE-T from 90mm Gun T15e and T54 (3200ft/s)

 

Document Unknown, archive scan

90mm M82 APCBC-HE-T 3200ft/s
Angle     PB      1000yds   2000yds
         216mm   195mm     175mm
30°       172mm   157mm     142mm


90mm M77 AP-T from 90mm Gun M1, M1a1, M2, and M3 (2700ft/s) WW2 Version

From Tm 9-1901 vs Vertical RHA
1000yds  = 5.5in (139mm)

 From The Ardennes, 1944-1945 Book, vs 30° RHA
100m    = 151mm
500m    = 130mm
1000m  = 107mm
1500m  = 88mm
2000m  = 73mm

Note: Interestingly enough, this matches with the Shoeburyness/Isigny Tests, showing that M77 could penetrate the 100mm thick curved Panther Mantlet out to 1000m. 

From World War 2 Ballistics vs Vertical RHA
100m    = 188mm
500m    = 163mm
1000m  = 137mm
1500m  = 115mm
2000m  = 96mm

 

Calculated based on Terminal velocity curve and known penetrations of 5.5in at 1000yds from TM 9-1901 and 600yds for Panther Glacis at the Isigny Tests. 60° is calculated from 2.5in at 2323ft/s ballistic limit..
90mm M77
Angle    10m     100m     500m   1000m   1500m   2000m
        193mm 188mm  163mm  135mm  112mm    92mm
30°          ~          ~            ~           ~           ~            ~
55°       97mm    94mm   82mm     68mm    56mm   46mm
60°       79mm    77mm   67mm     55mm    46mm   37mm

 

From Document armament for future tanks or similar combat vehicles.

90mm M77 AP-T
Angle  1000yd    2000yd
         149mm      99mm
30°        96mm       68mm
55°        58mm       43mm
60°        45mm       35mm


90mm T33 APBC-T from 90mm Gun M1, M1a1, M2, and M3 (2800ft/s) WW2 Version, 56Rockwell C

From Hunnicutt's Sherman Book vs 30° RHA
500yds    = 4.7in (119mm)
1000yds  = 4.6in (117mm)
1500yds  = 4.5in (114mm)
2000yds  = 4.3in (109mm)
 
From TBDv3, 60deg is calculate from 3in at 2613ft/s
90mm T33 APBC-T WW2
Angle    10m      100m      500m    1000m    1500m    2000m
         165mm  164mm   161mm   155mm   147mm    139mm
30°       123mm  122mm   120mm   117mm   113mm     108mm
55°        97mm    95mm     90mm     83mm      75mm      67mm
60°        84mm    83mm     78mm     72mm      66mm      61mm
 
From Situation Report No. 34
90mm T33 APBC-T 2800ft/s
Angle    0yds    500yds  1000yds  1500yds  2000yds
         165mm  160mm    155mm    147mm    142mm    
30°       124mm  119mm    116mm     114mm    109mm
45°       106mm  101mm      83mm      76mm      68mm

 90mm T43 APBC-T from 90mm Gun T15e1/2, and T54 (3200ft/s) WW2 Version, 56Rockwell C

From Hunnicutt's Pershing Book vs 30deg RHA
500yds    = 5.2in (132mm)
1000yds  = 5.0in (127mm)
1500yds  = 4.9in (124mm)
2000yds  = 4.8in (122mm)

Calculated from TBDv3 penetration numbers for T33 adjusted for the extra 400ft/s velocity of the T15/T54 Guns, taking into consideration the tendency of the round to shatter vs 8in plate at just over 3200ft/s.
90mm T43/T33 @3200ft/s APBC-T WW2
Angle    10m      100m      500m    1000m    1500m    2000m
         200mm  197mm   187mm   174mm   162mm    151mm
30°       150mm  148mm   141mm   131mm   122mm    113mm
55°       117mm   116mm   110mm   102mm     95mm      89mm
60°       102mm   100mm    95mm     89mm     83mm      77mm

90mm (M304) T30E16 HVAP-T From 90mm Guns M1, M1A1, M2, and M3 (3350ft/s)

From FM 6-40 1945 vs Vertical RHA
500yds    = 11.2in (284.48mm)
1000yds  = 10.0in (254.0mm)
1500yds  = 9.0in  (228.6mm)
 
From World War II Ballistics Armor and Gunnery vs Vertical RHA
100yds    = 306mm
500yds    = 278mm
1000yds  = 246mm
1500yds  = 218mm
2000yds  = 193mm
 
From Hunnicutt's Books vs 30deg RHA
500yds    = 8.7in (221mm)
1000yds  = 7.9in (199mm)
1500yds  = 7.0in (176mm)
2000yds  = 6.1in (156mm)
 
From British Attache Report 2473-44 T30e16/M304 at 3350ft/s vs 30deg RHA
0yds        = 235mm
500yds    = 212mm
1000yds  = 188mm
1500yds  = 164mm
2000yds  = 143mm

From TBDv3, 0 and 30deg are taken directly from the manual.  55 and 60deg are estimated via slope mods of 3.4 and 4.525 respectively, from World War 2 Ballistics from the 0deg numbers.  They don't seem to fit with ballistic limit penetration ability numbers, in essence they're slightly low.  If someone wants to show me how to demarre the ballistic limit numbers for hvap I'd be thankful.
90mm T30e16/M304 HVAP-T
Angle    10m      100m      500m    1000m    1500m    2000m
         314mm  308mm   282mm   251mm   222mm    195mm
30°       245mm  241mm   219mm   190mm   171mm    148mm
55°         92mm    90mm     83mm     73mm     65mm      57mm

From Situation Report No. 34
90mm T30e16/M304 HVAP-T
Angle    0yds    500yds  1000yds  1500yds  2000yds
         314mm  284mm    254mm    228mm    205mm    
30°       228mm  205mm    182mm    162mm    144mm
45°       152mm  137mm    119mm    104mm      89mm

 

From Document armament for future tanks or similar combat vehicles.

90mm M304 HVAP-T
Angle  1000yd    2000yd
         254mm    190mm
30°       193mm    144mm
55°         73mm      55mm
60°         63mm      50mm

 

90mm M332 HVAP-T 3900ft/s from 90mm Gun M3A1

 

From Document armament for future tanks or similar combat vehicles.

90mm M332 HVAP-T
Angle  1000yd    2000yd
         294mm    213mm
30°       233mm    167mm
55°         91mm      68mm
60°         78mm      58mm

 

90mm T30e16/T44 HVAP-T at 3750ft/s from 90mm Guns T15e and T54

Document Unknown, archive scan

90mm T30e16 HVAP-T 3750ft/s
Angle     PB      1000yds   2000yds
         373mm   302mm     241mm
30°       289mm   236mm     185mm


 90mm T33e7/M318 APBC-T from 90mm Gun M3A1 (2800ft/s) Post War 63.5Rockwell C

 

Results from Yugoslav tests of the late 50s and early 60s as translated by Bojan on Tank-net

 

Quote

90mm M3A1 (from M36 TD) firing AP and HVAP
Fails to penetrate glacis with any kind of ammo even @100m

T33 AP fails to penetrate frontal turret even @ 100m.
M304 subcalibre penetrates frontal turret @ 600m.

Both rounds penetrate side hull at any practical range.

T33 AP penetrates frontal part of the side turret @250m.
M304 subcalibre subcalibre penetrates frontal part of the side turret @1500m.

T33 AP penetrates rear part of the side turret @ 750m
M304 subcalibre penetrates rear par of the side turret at any practical range.

Conclusion: SO-90 M36 can only be effectively used vs new foreign tanks from ambush at range less then
1500m, with subcalibre ammo.

Addition 1: Development of HEAT ammo suitable to be fired from M3A1 gun mounted on SO-90 —36 is recommenced.

 

 Vs RHA: Revision 3
M318 (T33e7) 2800ft/s or 853.44m/s
          10m       100m      500m      1000m     1500m     2000m
     215mm   212mm    200mm    184mm    169mm     155mm
20°   188mm   185mm    174mm    161mm    148mm     135mm
30°   150mm   148mm    139mm    128mm    118mm     108mm
55°     97mm     95mm      90mm      83mm      76mm       70mm
60°     79mm     78mm      73mm      68mm      62mm       57mm

Calculated based on the ballistic limit penetration numbers for T33e7 below.
60deg is based on 76.2mm @ 832.104m/s
55deg is based on 76.2mm @ 722.68m/s
30deg is based on 101.6mm @ 650.748m/s
20deg is based on 152.4mm @ 737.0064m/s
0deg is based on 129.54mm @ 598.017m/s

90mm M318A1 APBC-T from 90mm Gun M36, M41, and M54 (3000ft/s) Post War 63.5Rockwell C

Finally figured out what was wrong with my previous calculations not matching up to real world pen ability of the shot.  So new numbers should show full capability of 350m penetration of T-54 turret front.

Results from Yugoslav tests of the late 50s and early 60s as translated by Bojan on Tank-net

Quote

90mm M36 gun from M47 tank firing AP, HVAP and HEAT

T-33 AP fails to penetrate glacis even @ 100m
M304 subcalibre fails to penetrate glacis even @ 100m
M431 HEAT penetrates glacis, but fails to fuse if side angle is more then 20deg.

T33AP penetrates front turret @ 350m
M304 subcalibre penetrates front turret @ 750m
M431 HEAT penetrates front turret

T33AP penetrates frontal part of the side of the turret @ 850m
M304 subcalibre penetrates frontal part of the side turret at any practical range
M431 HEAT penetrates frontal part of the side turret

All rounds penetrate rear part of the side turret at any practical range.

Conclusion:
Amount of M431 HEAT rounds in ammo load should be increased, and load of T33 AP be reduced.
Frontal engagement of the new foreign tanks is to be done only with M431 HEAT round.
Engagement from ambush position can be done with M304 subcalibre and M431 HEAT at any range and
T33 AP at ranges less then 1000m.


Problem of M431 round failing to fuse at angles more then 60deg is to be fixed with production of domestic HEAT.  That round should be also capable of being fired from M3A1 gun mounted on SO-90 —36. without significant modifications to the gun or vehicle.T-54A cast armor was 270 BHN (rolled parts were 290 BHN) and was judged to be of excellent quality.  Tests vs "T-54A" glacis and side hull for all guns except 90mm M36 were not done vs actual vehicle but vs equivalent test plate.

 

 

From Book M48 Patton Vs Centurion: Indo-Pakistani War 1965, appears to be at 30degree obliquity.
100m    = 160mm
1000m  = 135mm
2000m  = 110mm

From Yugoslav live tests, Assuming at 30 vs RHA of the same hardness as T-54A, 270-290bhn.
160mm at 100m
150mm at 500m
135mm at 1000m
125mm at 1500m
110mm at 2000m

Vs RHA: Revision 3
M318A1 3000ft/s or 914.4m/s
          10m       100m      500m      1000m     1500m     2000m
     238mm   235mm    221mm    205mm    190mm     175mm
30°   165mm   163mm    154mm    143mm    132mm     122mm
55°   107mm   105mm      99mm      92mm      85mm       79mm
60°     87mm     86mm      81mm      75mm      70mm       64mm

 

These results are calculated based on the below ballistic limit penetration test numbers.  They fit much more closely to WW2 ballistics slope modifier predictions for AP.  The 30 degree numbers are much closer to results listed in some books and mentioned from Yugoslav live tests. 

60deg is based on 76.2mm @ 832.104m/s
55deg is based on 76.2mm @ 722.68m/s
30deg is based on 101.6mm @ 650.748m/s
0deg is based on 129.54mm @ 598.017m/s
 

From Document armament for future tanks or similar combat vehicles.

90mm M348/T108e40 HEAT-FS
Angle  1000yd    2000yd
         304mm     304mm
30°       261mm     261mm
55°       175mm     175mm
60°       152mm     152mm

 

From Document armament for future tanks or similar combat vehicles.

90mm M431/T300 HEAT-FS
Angle  1000yd    2000yd
         340mm     340mm
30°        -- mm        -- mm
55°        -- mm        -- mm
60°       170mm     170mm

 

105mm Howitzers

Spoiler

105mm M67 HEAT-T From Howitzer M2A1 and M3
From FM 6-40 1945 vs Vertical RHA
All Range = 5 - 5.5in (127 - 139.7mm)

 

From Document armament for future tanks or similar combat vehicles.

105mm M67 HEAT
Angle  1000yd    2000yd
         116mm     119mm
30°       101mm     104mm
55°         66mm       68mm
60°         58mm       61mm

 

 

105mm Guns

Spoiler

105mm T5e2 and T140 Gun

105mm T32 APBC-T From 105mm Gun T5E1/2
From Hunnicutt's Firepower book.
                  1000yds               2000yds
30deg   5.3in (134mm)      4.7in (119mm)
60deg   3.3in (84mm)        2.7in (69mm)

105mm T29 HVAP-T, From 105mm Gun T5E1/2
From Situation Report No. 34
105mm T29 HVAP
Angle    0yds    500yds  1000yds  1500yds  2000yds
         381mm  360mm    335mm    312mm    292mm    
30°       287mm  266mm    249mm    231mm    216mm
45°       193mm  180mm    167mm    152mm    139mm

 

105mm M68 Gun

105mm M392 APDS-T

AD317307 Evaluation of Preproduction Shot, APDS, 105mm, M392A1 for M68 Gun, June 1960, BL Velocity plugged into Firing table FT 105-A-0 for M392

105mm M392 APDS-T
Angle    800m
60°        127mm  

 

105mm M728 APDS-T

Book: M60 Vs T62, Cold War Combatants 1956-92,

105mm M728 APDS-T
Angle    500m    1000m    1500m     2000m     2500m     3000m
         300mm   275mm    250mm    225mm    200mm     175mm
 

105mm M393 HEP-T 90% Success Rate

Angle    500m    1000m    1500m     2000m  
         127mm   127mm    127mm    127mm   

60°       127mm   127mm    127mm    127mm

 

105mm M735 APFSDS-T

Lanz-Odermatt Calculator Estimates for Sheathed Rod Penetrators, using Velocities for M735 from FT 105-A-3 C-1. 

260bhn Target, Low end of Armor hardness range for Class 3 NATO Test plate

Angle    0m        100m      500m     1000m     1500m     2000m     2500m     3000m
       366mm    364mm   356mm    345mm     334mm    323mm    311mm     299mm

60°     214mm    212mm   208mm    201mm     195mm    188mm    181mm     174mm

 

280bhn Target, Mid range of Armor hardness range for Class 3 NATO Test plate

Angle    0m        100m      500m     1000m     1500m     2000m     2500m     3000m
       356mm    354mm   346mm    335mm     324mm    313mm    301mm     288mm

60°     208mm    207mm   202mm    195mm     189mm    182mm    175mm     168mm

 

300bhn Target, High end of Armor hardness range for Class 3 NATO Test plate

Angle    0m        100m      500m     1000m     1500m     2000m     2500m     3000m
       348mm    346mm   338mm    326mm     315mm    304mm    292mm     279mm

60°     203mm    202mm   197mm    190mm     184mm    177mm    170mm     163mm

 

105mm M456A2 HEAT-FS-T

Book: M60 Vs T62, Cold War Combatants 1956-92,

105mm M456A2 HEAT-FS-T
Angle    500m    1000m    1500m     2000m     2500m     3000m
         425mm   425mm    425mm    425mm    425mm     425mm

 

120mm Guns

Spoiler

120mm M358 APBC-T Shot From 120mm Gun M58
From Hunnicutt's Firepower book.
                  1000yds               2000yds
30deg   8.7in (221mm)      7.7in (196mm)
60deg   4.9in (124mm)      4.5in (114mm)

 

From AD311651, Development of 120mm Armor Piercing Shot M358 (T116e7)

M358 APBC 3500ft/s
          1000yds      2000yds     
        233mm        223mm
30°      205mm        193mm
55°      142mm        134mm
60°      129mm        119mm

 

From Document armament for future tanks or similar combat vehicles.

120mm M358/T116e5 APBC-T @ 3500ft/s
Angle  1000yd    2000yd
         261mm     236mm
30°       190mm     165mm
55°       147mm     127mm
60°       132mm     109mm


120mm M469 HEAT-T Shell from 120mm Gun M58
From Hunnicutt's Firepower book.
               All Ranges            
30deg   13in (330mm)     
60deg   7.5in (190mm)     

 

From Document armament for future tanks or similar combat vehicles.

120mm M469 HEAT-T @ 3400ft/s
Angle  1000yd    2000yd
         381mm     381mm
30°       330mm     330mm
55°       218mm     218mm
60°       190mm     190mm

 

 

155mm Guns

Spoiler


155mm M112 APBC-HE From 155mm Gun M1918 (2360ft/s)(M12 GMC)

From FM 6-40 1945 vs Vertical RHA
500yds    = 6.9in (175.26mm)
1000yds  = 6.7in (170.18mm)
1500yds  = 6.5in (165.10mm)
 
155mm M112 APBC-HE From 155mm Gun M1 (2745ft/s) (M40 GMC, M53 SPG)

From FM 6-40 1945 vs Vertical RHA
500yds    = 7.6in (193.04mm)
1000yds  = 7.5in (190.5mm)
1500yds  = 7.2in (182.88mm)

 From Situation Report No. 34
155mm M112 @ 2745ft/s
Angle    0yds    500yds  1000yds  1500yds  2000yds
         198mm  193mm    190mm    182mm    177mm    
30°       165mm  162mm    160mm    152mm    149mm
45°       127mm  124mm    121mm    111mm     106mm

155mm M112 APCB-HE From 155mm Gun T7 (2200ft/s) (T30 Heavy tank)

 

From Situation Report No. 34
155mm M112 @ 2200ft/s
Angle    0yds    500yds  1000yds  1500yds  2000yds
         170mm  165mm    157mm    152mm    144mm    
30°       142mm  137mm    132mm    127mm    122mm
45°        99mm    94mm      89mm      81mm      76mm

 

 

Carrier_ (Posted )

As requested, thread name updated o7
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I comapred some of these values with the ones from 'Terminal Ballistics Data' (official US document with bunch of penetration data for their guns). and they are correct. 

 

One of the problems in game is that not all guns have penetration values against vertical plate (0 or 90 degree angle, depends from your perspective). IMO all guns should have penetration values shown for 0, 30 and 60 degree angles. But that is probably too much to ask because they don't even have proper ballistics modeled.

Edited by Fmanfsbr
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What could the penetration for the T30s ( if we ever see it in game ) 155mm T7 be ? IRL it only used the HE shells with around 12.8 MJ of kinetic energy ( did the math myself ) ... And thats for the 43kg shell going at 730 ish M/s .

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What could the penetration for the T30s ( if we ever see it in game ) 155mm T7 be ? IRL it only used the HE shells with around 12.8 MJ of kinetic energy ( did the math myself ) ... And thats for the 43kg shell going at 730 ish M/s .

 

The 155mm T7 was a tank mounted 155 M1 and used the same ammunition. The AP round was intended to defeat concrete primarily and had a significant HE filler.

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The 155mm T7 was a tank mounted 155 M1 and used the same ammunition. The AP round was intended to defeat concrete primarily and had a significant HE filler.

 

What was the expected penetration values ?

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There literally in the OP...

 

Yeah, on the screenshot of page 9 where it says effects on concrete.

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O nvm just noticed it .... it kinda looks low relative to the kinetic energy ... guess it has to do with the low muzzle velocity ?

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Just Fyi

 

Gaijin doesn't use the Russian test stuff....as their 100mm, 88mm L71, and 122mm D25T is entirely too high for that.

 

Good find though. Fun fact

 

It shows that HE penetrations drops over distance..

 

Their ballistics are not what is wrong

 

They just use an over-simplified model for sloped armor or rather angle of impact it uses a pure LoS thickness over proper T/D slope curves.

 

*shrug* it's better than the lel WoT system but not realistic...on the other hand

 

It -is- easier to do in terms of a source material availability stand point.

Edited by Sakuzhi
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Just Fyi

 

Gaijin doesn't use the Russian test stuff....as their 100mm, 88mm L71, and 122mm D25T is entirely too high for that.

 

Good find though. Fun fact

 

It shows that HE penetrations drops over distance..

 

Their ballistics are not what is wrong

 

They just use an over-simplified model for sloped armor or rather angle of impact it uses a pure LoS thickness over proper T/D slope curves.

 

*shrug* it's better than the lel WoT system but not realistic...on the other hand

 

It -is- easier to do in terms of a source material availability stand point.

 

The reduced penetration of HE at distance vs concrete could be entirely related to impact angle.

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The reduced penetration of HE at distance vs concrete could be entirely related to impact angle.

 

 

Actually it isn't...I've seen the 155mm HE round chart before at 0 degrees impact

 

It drops over range, how they achieve that is they reduce the velocity of the round to match at range X during testing and record the results..

 

 

This is done by varying the powder charge of the round. Nor would it matter if the penetration value wasn't dependent on a kinetic penetration (which it is)..as how the Shell explodes makes angling somewhat....not really important...

 

So the angling would again, effect the required-kinetic Penetration...this is backed up by the fact they are using a Delayed Fuse to get it to penetrate the Concrete in the first place,

 

Further backing up the theory that they need a kinetic penetration to be that effective. As Shell Fragments simply are NOT as effective as the entire shell in terms of a kinetic penetration.

 

I'm just mentioning it as the ..lel HE model is causing all the pissing and moaning over the M4A3 105 right now...even though it's been busted since CBT.

Edited by Sakuzhi
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Dat 90mm HVAP pen tho

 

This is why.  76mm hvap also had that design..  Which is why it's pen is so high vs vertical plate.

 

shot-h-v-a-p-90mm-t30e16.jpg

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Something I unexpectedly found the other day, while researching another matter for US tanks. 

 

This is from TM-9-1901 Artillery Ammunition manual.  Which has info on most US gun ammo used during the war.  Interestingly enough, it contains a chart that gives the approximate percentage of penetration lost at a given angle.  For example, US shells at 30deg obliquity lose around 20% of their vertical plate penetration value. 

 

[attachment=116194:Penetration Change vs angle.jpg]

 

I ran the numbers for 30deg plate from hunnicutts, for some shells, and they come out fairly close to the numbers stated in FM-6-40, at least within a few millimeters for those listed.  By the way, 76mm M62 is under penetrating by about 14mm.  93 / 0.8 = 116.25mm  @ 500yds vs 119.38mm listed in FM-6-40.  By the way, this also means 75mm M72 is under performing. 

 

 

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I'm posting this screenshot of the US FM 6-40 Field Artillery, and Gunnery Field manual, from June 1945, as it has penetration info vs vertical plate for most of the US tank guns of the time.  Note, that it doesn't cover all ammo types.  It seems to concentrate on HEAT, APC, and HVAP rounds.  As far as I can tell, these numbers were determined from Ordnance's actual ballistic limit testing vs various hardness levels of RHA steel at the vertical. 

 

I'm posting this so people have something solid to compare to, between whats in game.  And what was tested by US Army Ordnance.  Numbers for certain guns, notable 75mm M61 seem to match up with known Russian Test result numbers, which are used in game.

 

attachicon.gifFM 6-4 Page 9 and 10.jpg

 

37mm M51B1 APC-T (2900ft/s) from 37mm Gun M3 or M6..

The older M51 shot had a velocity of 2600ft/s. 

500yds    = 2.9in (73.66mm)

1000yds  = 2.6in (66.04mm)

1500yds  = 2.2in (55.88mm)

 

57mm M86 APC-T From 57mm AT Gun M1 (Gun used in the T48 GMC)

500yds    = 4.0in (101.6mm)

1000yds  = 3.5in (88.9mm)

1500yds  = 3.1in (78.74mm)

 

75mm M61A1 APCBC-HE-T From 75mm Gun M3, or M6

500yds    = 3.3in (83.82mm)

1000yds  = 3.0in (76.2mm)

1500yds  = 2.7in (68.56mm)

 

75mm M66 HEAT-T from Howitzer M1, M2, M3

All Range = 4-4.5in (101.6 - 114.3mm)

 

76mm M62A1 APCBC-HE-T From 3inch Gun M7 or 76mm Gun M1, M1A1-C (Note: M62A1 is standard M62 with an improved base fuze and more powerful HE filler)

500yds    = 4.7in (119.38mm)

1000yds  = 4.3in (109.22mm)

1500yds  = 3.9in (99.06mm)

 

76mm M62A1 APCBC-HE-T From 76mm Gun M1A2 (different barrel rifling than the 76mm Gun M1A1)

500yds    = 4.7in (119.38mm)

1000yds  = 4.4in (111.76mm)

1500yds  = 4.1in (104.14mm)

 

76mm M93 HVAP-T From 76mm Guns M1, M1A1, M1A2, and 3inch Guns M5 and M7

500yds    = 8.4in (213.36mm)

1000yds  = 7.3in (185.43mm)

1500yds  = 6.2in (157.48mm)

 

90mm M82 APCBC-HE-T From 90mm Guns M1, M1A1, M2, and M3

500yds    = 6.4in (162.56mm)

1000yds  = 6.0in (152.4mm)

1500yds  = 5.6in (142.24mm)

 

90mm (M304) T30E16 HVAP-T From 90mm Guns M1, M1A1, M2, and M3 (3350ft/s)

500yds    = 11.2in (284.48mm)

1000yds  = 10.0in (254.0mm)

1500yds  = 9.0in  (228.6mm)

 

105mm M67 HEAT-T From Howitzer M2A1 and M3

All Range = 5 - 5.5in (127 - 139.7mm)

 

155mm M112 APBC-HE From 155mm Gun M1918 (2360ft/s)(M12 GMC)

500yds    = 6.9in (175.26mm)

1000yds  = 6.7in (170.18mm)

1500yds  = 6.5in (165.10mm)

 

155mm M112 APBC-HE From 155mm Gun M1 (2745ft/s) (M40 GMC, M53 SPG)

500yds    = 7.6in (193.04mm)

1000yds  = 7.5in (190.5mm)

1500yds  = 7.2in (182.88mm)

 

Now before you say my numbers aren't correct, these aren't my numbers.  These are the numbers from the field manual, which is a primary source.  All I've done was use a metric converter on them to show the mm penetration.  Also remember, that from what I've seen, converting from other sources with 30deg obliquity numbers for these ammo's will give different numbers.  This happens because US APC ammo is designed to hit vertical plate.  Which means most penetration values will likely be higher than what the equations will give.  APC also tends to lose penetration potential more quickly against angled plate than uncapped ammo.  Uncapped ammo, of course has a much higher chance to deflect though. 

 

For anyone who wants to tie all the 90mm Data together, for a possible bug report and buff to the 90mm armed tanks.  This site has most of the velocity info etc.  http://www.lonesentry.com/manuals/90-mm-ammunition/  I also figure, given hard numbers, people use be able to extrapolate the penetration for 100m and 10m as well. Those can be added if they prove to be accurate. 

 

 

Guess how many are 'right' in WT right now?

 

Not a single one. Every single US Shell in game is no less than 10% lower than every single posted value.

 

 

Speaking of which did you go ahead and bug report this?

Edited by Sakuzhi
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Bump for reactivation  :popcorn:

 

I'm amazed someone actually found it again.

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Slowly but surely, I'm editing to add penetration charts to reflect the current metagame with penetration vs multiple angles.  I also have graphs for Face hardened armor for many of the APCBC shells.  But, FHA currently isn't modeled in game.  Which means US APCBC is actually under performing vs certain German vehicles, such as the Panzer II/III/IV, Stug/StuH III, Jagdpanzer IV, most of which used face hardened armor on their hulls. 

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Any plans to bring this up to devs for further inspection?

 

Yeah, waiting to get the manuals TM 9-1907 1944, and TM 9-1907 1948 first.  Those should have info on the solid shot rounds for the bigger guns as well, TM 9-1907 1948 is where WW2 Ballistics got their info on US projectiles..  Can't get those online in pdf form though.  Have to order them from someone who sells exact photo copies, of them.  Still like $30 each plus shipping, haven't had the extra money for it yet. 

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Well, up through the 90mm M304 HVAP now.  Still need to add in T43 APBC, and T44 HVAP, which are effectively T33 and M304 fired from the T15/T54 Guns.  As well as late version 90mm M82 as fired from those guns at 3200ft/s.  I'm still trying to find any info I can for the post war guns in the M41a1, M103, and possibly the M47's solid shot rounds.  Terminal velocity curves, etc.

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