UrbaniteNine

LaGG-3-8 (with VYa-23) captured by Japanese - Premium Plane

NOTE! It seems that there is quite a lot of negative feedback regarding this suggestion. I therefore will put this suggestion on hold for now.

 

 

The Japanese captured many different aircraft throughout the course of the Second World War. Among these were several Soviet aircraft, including a LaGG-3 fighter, an SB bomber, various models of I-15 and several I-16 fighters.
 
Now, I present to you my proposal to add the captured LaGG-3-8 with VYa-23 into the Japanese tree as a premium aircraft.

 
Introduction:
 
The Lavochkin-Gorbunov-Gudkov LaGG-3 (Лавочкин-Горбунов-Гудков ЛаГГ-3) was a Soviet fighter aircraft of World War II. It was a refinement of the earlier LaGG-1, and was one of the most modern aircraft available to the Soviet Air Force at the time of Germany's invasion in 1941.
 
It is known that at one LaGG-3 was captured and tested by the Imperial Japanese Army Air Service. (From source 1, page 13)
 
During the spring of 1942, a Soviet pilot of a regiment based in Far East defected and made a wheels-up landing near Chiasmus, in Manchukno (Manchuria). Manchuria at that time was a Japanese puppet state. The Japanese repaired the aircraft and started an evaluation flight cycle, whose supervisor was Major Yamamoto of the Army Test Center. These tests were conducted from the Mutanchiang Air Base, in Manchuria.  
The test pilots were not satisfied with the LaGG-3's performance and flight characteristics as the difference in handling and wing loading from the A6M Zero and other typical Japanese fighters was enormous. (From source 2)
 
Specifications, Testing and Markings:
 
The aircraft was of 8th series (LaGG-3-8).
This aircraft's distinctive characteristics are:

  • it was the first version without the two 7.62 mm ShKAS machine guns and the requisite bulges;
  • the armament consisted of one 12.7 mm synchronised Berezin UBS machine gun on the left side of the nose (as opposed to being located between the "V" of the engine), and a VYa-23 23 mm cannon firing through the spinner shaft (this was the weapon of the captured example; on most examples, the gun was a ShVAK 20 mm gun; the VYa-23 was recognised by its slightly more protruding barrel);
  • the upper engine cowling panel was simplified in comparison with earlier types, and was similar to that of the series 11, but it had DZUS locks (as on earlier types) instead of fast locks (typical of series 11 and later);
  • the lower cowling panel was with fast locks and identical to that of 11th series:
  • the antenna mast was of the tall type, as on 4th and 11th series;
  • the rudder had one balance weight, as on 4th and 11th series;
  • the tail wheel was fixed;
  • there were no slats on the wings;
  • the propeller spinner was of the early, "sharp" style.

(From source 2)
 
 
More specific information on the LaGG-3-8's performance and stats can be found in FryingTiger's datasheet (source 3).
 
 

From the book "Japanese Army Captured Aircraft-Secret Files" by K. Oshio and S. Nohara (source 4):
 

the a/c was tested by the CO of the 85th Fighter Regiment G. Yamamoto and a Sgt Yoshida. The a/c had to be repaired from the belly landing, and again when Japanese ground troops mistook it for an intruder and hit it with ground fire. This was in test in the Mudanjiang area in Manchuria. The a/c was later flown to Japan but wrecked in a landing accident along the way.

The book gives performance figures which presumably come the tests, since not the same as standard sources, but I'm not 100% sure, and some numbers look a little strange:
max speed 493 km/h at s/l 
518km/h at 2,400m
(the book lists an alt of 4280m but then doesn't give the speed, typo in the book?, it's also possible the other two speeds are for 2.4km and 4.3km)
time to 3,000m: 3 min-40 sec
to 5,000m: 7 min-6 sec
to 8,000m: 17 min-13 sec

 
Some other accounts say this LaGG-3 was tested head to head versus captured P-40 and Type 3 ('Tony'), all somewhat similar in basic arrangement and appearance, but this seems doubtful based on above account. The a/c based in Manchuria at the time, for informal tests, were Type 97 ('Nate') Type 1 ('Oscar') and Type 2 ('Tojo').

Bergstrom and Mikhailov in "Black Cross Red Star" Vol 1 discuss how individual examples of Soviet fighters produced ca. 1941-42 could have real performance much less than theoretical, more plane to plane variation than would usually be expected. (Direct quotation from link in source 4)
 
 

 
jap2r.jpg jap3r.jpg jap1r.jpg
 
Also, from examining photographs of the captured aircraft, we can see:

  • the wingroot supercharger intakes were modified, probably because of use of non-original pieces during the repairs; their profile is different and longer than usual;
  • there are small recesses in front of the supercharger air intakes on the engine cowling sides;
  • a part of the landing gear door covering the main wheels was removed;
  • the pitot, larger than the original one, was of Japanese origin;
  • the propeller, having been repaired, was natural metal with a red stripe close to the extremity, instead of black; this was one typically used by the Japanese;
  • the third image shows a different shape of the fuselage camouflage bands near the cockpit compared with the first photo; perhaps the aircraft was repainted between the two shots;
  • the camouflage is comprised of three colors, of which the darkest was likely black painted by the Japanese over the stars, codes and repainted areas; the medium color was probably Soviet faded black or dark green; the lighter upper color was green, along with some indistinguishable Japanese repainting;
  • the darkest color covered the places previously occupied by red stars and, perhaps, by numbers;
  • the hinomarus on the fuselage had a particularly wide white outline; 
  • the hinomarus under the wing surfaces were large and without any outline; 
  • the undersurfaces were entirely light blue, perhaps with some repainting with some Japanese light blue grey;
  • a yellow identification band was painted on the wing leading edge; this band looks interrupted, at least on the right side, by a dark stripe, probably in correspondence with the junction with the piece of the new air intake; the band doesn't appear on all photos.

(From source 2)
 
jap4r.jpg
 
This fourth image shows no yellow identification bands. A black repainting covers the right wing hinomaru; most likely some damage on the wing was identified and repaired after hinomaru application; the hinomaru was probably later restored. The pitot isn't visible either. A roughly painted "5" is visible on the rudder, but this doesn't appear on other three images. (From source 2)
 
 
More images and artwork of aircraft (from source 2):
jap-lpr.jpg jap-rpr.jpg jap-above.jpg
 
Some from source 5:
lagg-3_jp1.jpg lagg-3_jp2.jpg
 
 
Other interesting sources:

Tiering, Battle Rating and Balance
 
This captured Japanese LaGG-3-8 with the VYa-23 is quite a unique aircraft. Only two or three other fighter planes share its VYa-23 cannon armament (Yak-9 series) and they are all very high-tiered. Perhaps the most comparable aircraft currently in game is the gift-only LaGG-3 with the NS-37 37mm cannon in the Soviet tree. There aren't many other comparable planes in terms of armament as neither the Japanese, nor the British, nor the USA had any fighter aircraft with nose- or centrally-mounted armament for that time frame. The German Bf 109 series is not comparable as they have far better performance than the LaGG-3.
 
The LaGG-3 has quite a good armament for its time, but was lacking in terms of performance. This cannon armament would give the Japanese tree's lower tier a bit of a boost, as most Japanese planes in Tier 1 and 2 have a maximum ammunition count of 60 rounds per gun, with 120 in total. I have yet to search for information regarding the ammunition count of the VYa-23 cannon, but I expect it to be only slightly less than the 150 rounds of ShVAK ammunition carried by the rest of the LaGG-3 series in the Soviet tree.
 
To those questioning why this "one off" plane can or should be added into the game as a premium: look at the American Bf 109 F4. It is very similar in many aspects to the LaGG-3: only one captured, used exclusively for testing, added into the game as a premium aricraft.

 
 
I hope you consider my suggestion for this unique and interesting aircraft to be added into War Thunder. This post will be a continual work in progress as I find and add more information.
 
Please feel free to let me know about your opinions and thought regarding my suggestion.
 
Thanks for reading!
 
 
 
Bibliography:

 

To-do list:

  • Ammunition supply and count
  • More test data
Edited by UrbaniteNine
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open for discussion

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No definitely not any other copy-paste, the Japanese have plenty of their aircraft that fits the premium position. If you want to fly with LaGG-3 play for the Russians.

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I don't think we need more copy & paste aircraft, what advantage would this give to the Japanese?

 

No definitely not any other copy-paste, the Japanese have plenty of their aircraft that fits the premium position. If you want to fly with LaGG-3 play for the Russians.

 

First off, this is not quite a copy and paste. This aircraft's armament is  completely unique, as with it's camouflage and markings.

 

Currently, the Japanese planes at Tiers 1 and 2 only have at most two wing mounted cannons, with a very limited ammunition load. This aircraft adds in a bit more variety, by bringing in centrally mounted armament, as well as the VYa-23. This opens up many more pathways for the Japanese, such as tank busting and ground attack.

 

Also, since the Japanese are known for their fragile fighters in the early tiers and even later on, the LaGG-3 would add a bit of durability into the lineup of fighters. Currently, the LaGG-3 is performing a bit too well in terms of durability and performance. This would help balance out Soviet vs Japanese matches at the lower tiers.

 

Thanks for your opinions!  :)s

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I still think that we do not need this. Japanese aircraft rely on his agility, this plane is flying brick, just more food for the Hellcat and Corsair

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I still think that we do not need this. Japanese aircraft rely on his agility, this plane is flying brick, just more food for the Hellcat and Corsair


Well, if it has a lower battle rating, one somewhere in the range of the earlier Soviet LaGG-3's, then it shouldn't be matched against Hellcats and Corsairs. It would be fighting the likes of Wildcats and other higher T1/low T2 aircraft. This would also boost the Japanese tree's fighter armament, more so with the new Yak-1 that is coming with a battle rating of 2.0.

Edited by UrbaniteNine
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No thanks.
These captured planes are destroying gameplay in RB by enabling tactics that a nation should not have.

If people want to fly the LaGG, do so in the Russia tree.

Im sure there's a few more real japanese planes that should be possible to add on Tier2.
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Also, since the Japanese are known for their fragile fighters in the early tiers and even later on, the LaGG-3 would add a bit of durability into the lineup of fighters. Currently, the LaGG-3 is performing a bit too well in terms of durability and performance. This would help balance out Soviet vs Japanese matches at the lower tiers.

Thanks for your opinions! :)s


Japan has a hard time against RU because of horribly imbalanced BR, not beacuse they lack the introduction of a captured fighter.

That said - it was an interesting read.
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No thanks.
These captured planes are destroying gameplay in RB by enabling tactics that a nation should not have.

If people want to fly the LaGG, do so in the Russia tree.

Im sure there's a few more real japanese planes that should be possible to add on Tier2.

If I want to fly a premium LaGG that was a production model, then I want it to be a captured.  Putting serious production models as a premium is almost always nothing but pure money-grubbing, pure and simple.

 

I still have no clue why people think these captureds are ruining the game.  I certainly don't take one look at the captured russian FW190D9 when I do see it every month and think to myself "OH NO!  THIS MATCH IS RUIIIINED!"  On the contrary, it makes for a more interesting battle and keeps the other guy on their toes as they have to be careful and actually ADAPT to situations(The current meta doesn't emphasize this nearly enough) and actually prevents the game from becoming repetitive.

 

Sure, there's a few more japanese planes that could be added to T2, but that's entirely irrelevant to a premium aircraft suggestion.

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Thanks for the comments guys. I decided to suggest this plane as a premium as it is fairly unique and adds some more variety to the different tactics the opposing team has to watch out for (e.g. boom n zooming from the Japanese as well as turn fighting). Sure we might end up with several of one type of plane in game, but it's not like the LaGG-3 is overpowered, right? All planes have their weaknesses, and can be played to their fortes too.

 

It would be good if Gaijin had "set" plane lists for each RB and SB map/mission, similar to the events mode. This would allow for more accurate matching and negate the "problem" that is caused by too many captured planes in one match. Or even just a way to limit the number of each type of plane for each match.

 

That said, I welcome all of your feedback! I am trying to find some more sources regarding the ammunition counts, turn circles, etc.

 

Thanks again!  :salute:

Edited by UrbaniteNine
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Sorry but no to this.



Good effort tho.


GP


ps


premium planes kill immersion. Its bad enough with American 109s, the new 190, japan f4u, and German p47. Ugh. Now you want to add a Japanese lagg? HELL to the no.

Fair enough, thank you for voicing your opinion! Although I do believe that you are referring to premium planes that were very limited in number IRL (i.e. paper planes, captured planes)...

Edited by UrbaniteNine
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I just feel that premiums defeat the purpose of flying a nation.

I wish premiums would be more about exotic planes rather than borrowed models. The Russian cobras are fine Bec they had a lot of them but the new American fw a8? Jap f4u? Nazi p47? J@p b17? I really disagree with those... Edited by gpanicucci777
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I just feel that premiums defeat the purpose of flying a nation.

I wish premiums would be more about exotic planes rather than borrowed models. The Russian cobras are fine Bec they had a lot of them but the new American fw a8? japan f4u? Nazi p47? J@p b17? I really disagree with those...

Fair enough... by exotic do you mean rare or unique? Because that contradicts your allowing of the Russian Airacobras and Kingcobras. Perhaps you are referring to more common "lend-lease" planes.

Let's not go into a discussion about Premium planes in general here. 

Edited by UrbaniteNine
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I posted about this yesterday!! Think it would be good for Japan to get some heavy hitting attack planes with a bit of speed, so support, gj on the research. Must say however that there was quite a lot of negative feedback about 'captured planes' on the post I made.
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This seems like a good idea, I personally have no objection to premium planes gameplay-wise even though logically they often don't make sense (where would the Japanese get a consistent supply of 23mm VYa shells?).

 

Nice job with the research, great post!

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I posted about this yesterday!! Think it would be good for Japan to get some heavy hitting attack planes with a bit of speed, so support, gj on the research. Must say however that there was quite a lot of negative feedback about 'captured planes' on the post I made.

 

This seems like a good idea, I personally have no objection to premium planes gameplay-wise even though logically they often don't make sense (where would the Japanese get a consistent supply of 23mm VYa shells?).

 

Nice job with the research, great post!

 

Thanks for the support guys! I am trying to find more sources regarding the ammunition count and supply. It seems that this plane is featured in one of the IL-2 Sturmovik series, so I will have a look and see the ammo counts there. I would imagine that the Japanese would have captured more ammunition elsewhere when they expanded across Asia, as this is quite an early plane.

 

Thanks again!  :salute:

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Stopped reading at "captured".

 

If they keep it up with filling the trees with captured planes, you can fly the same plane in every nation...

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Stopped reading at "captured".

 

If they keep it up with filling the trees with captured planes, you can fly the same plane in every nation...

First off, because you didn't read any further, this LaGG-3 has a VYa-23, a model which is not in game. This plane was captured by the Japanese and the Japanese only. No other country aside from the Soviet Union had this plane.
 

Please do not bring an argument or comment about premium or captured aircraft in general into this thread.

 

Thank you.

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First off, because you didn't read any further, this LaGG-3 has a VYa-23, a model which is not in game. This plane was captured by the Japanese and the Japanese only. No other country aside from the Soviet Union had this plane.
 

Please do not bring an argument or comment about premium or captured aircraft in general into this thread.

 

Thank you.

You know what, I will let you in on a secret... I actually DID read your suggestion.

 

And I still think it's not a good idea to put it in the Japanese tree. Why not put it in the Russian tree, where it belongs? :dntknw:

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You know what, I will let you in on a secret... I actually DID read your suggestion.

 

And I still think it's not a good idea to put it in the Japanese tree. Why not put it in the Russian tree, where it belongs? :dntknw:

We could, so my my research could be put to use if my idea of a Japanese plane was rejected. Maybe have the 23mm as an upgrade for one of teh LaGG-3's? Like the Yak-9U series. Anyhow, I'm still gonna push for adding it as a premium, but if that doesn't work, I probably won't suggest for it to be added to the Soviet tree. No point in doing so.

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