mrnuggets

p-51 vs ki-84 ko hayate High altitude fight

 

Normally a spin test will document both right and left spins, because you can get both quite easily depending on whether you give left or right rudder when you induce a spin. A proper spin entry if you want to induce a spin is cross the controls and pull up, and then the spin is "held" for a while. This is stated in the document:
"With normal spin control positions: rudder full with, elevator full up, and ailerons neutral..."
 
or
Both left and right spins are routinely done. You're misunderstanding the document if you think it "spins to the left" only. If you do a textbook spin entry to the left, it will spin to the left, and vice versa, do a spin entry to the right and it will spin to the right.
 
(2) While http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.org/mustang/p-51b-6883.html mentions left wing dropping in a power on stall, but only when the plane is flown in un-coordinated flight and with yaw to the left. If you would take a counter-clockwise prop plane and yaw it to the left, it would also drop the left wing.
 
It mentions nothing about what happens in coordinated flight. Let's assume that all the manuals are talking specifically about power-off stalls, and discount them, and look at documentation about power-on stalls specifically.
 
NACA L-566, titled "Flying qualities and stalling characteristics of the north american XP-51 airplane", page 34 states, for cruising condition (which is, power on):
"The imminence of the stall was indicated by light aileron snatching and a mild roll to the right. A slight further movement of the stick back caused a faster roll to the right which was checked when the stick was eased forward"
 
"Previous aircraft have included a placard warning with respect to accelerated stalls producing rapid roll to the right"
 
This isn't uncommon; Spitfire V also produces a "mild roll to the right" in a power-on stall in cruising condition (see, NACA L-353 "Stalling characteristics of the Supermarine Spitfire VA airplane"). 
 
(3) P-51 did not have a "spin problem". In contrast with the earlier army pursuit fighters (P-40, P-39) spinning was actually permitted by most manuals. The only deficiency is that it had little warning of impending stall, but that's also true of many fighters of the day.
 
(4) The mechanic of wing drop at stall - well, it's like this, in a nutshell:
-> Wing drop at stall doesn't occur because of torque ; it occurs because one wing stalls before the other, leading to asymmetrical lift
-> Stall with yaw , using ailerons to keep wings level (cross control) - typically wing drop and spin in direction of rudder (yaw). Legitmate use of this is, for example, textbook spin entry. The reason for this is simple; in yaw to, say, the left, the air is moving quicker over the left wing then the right. This creates rolling to the right. Applying left aileron increases the mean AoA of the right wing, ensuring it will stall first. Ailerons can have an opposite effect at stall point.
-> Accelerated stall, descending (coordinated) turn: inner wing at higher AoA, stalls first.
-> Accelerated stall, climbing (coordinated) turn: outer wing at higher AoA, stalls first.
-> Accelerated stall, uncoordinated turn (too little or too much rudder, using ailerons to hold the plane in the turn with controls effectively crossed): the wing in direction of yaw stalls first
 

A plane which at low speed and high power requires right rudder to keep steady, can actually require a bit of left rudder at high speed. This is normal; the force which makes the plane yaw to the left (which is due to helical propwash largely) is decreased as speed increases, and single engine aircraft normally have some asymmetry in order to deal with this and have neutral trim at cruise speeds, from rudders set at an angle to the aircraft axis, engines not aligned with aircraft axis, asymmetric wings and so on.

 

--

 

You're partially right about something, though. It's not that the torque is "reversed" once you are in flight, it's not. It exhibits a rolling tendency to the left at low speeds which is correct and which decreases with speed and is almost nonexistent at cruise speed (which is good, the planes are finally trimmed for level flight at cruise speed).

 

Problem is there's no yaw at high power and low speed in flight and there should be, almost as if there were no simulation of effects of helical propwash going on (which is the real reason why the plane will yaw to the left in that situation).

 

I just tested it (I don't play the game much anymore) and I need to give a prodigious amount of left rudder to keep the ball centered and do a coordinated low speed left turn at WEP in a P-51D, which incidates to me - this effect is not in there yet at all. Propeller torque, on the other hand, is. The plane tries to roll left at low speed and high power, and yaw left on takeoff. It also explains why you don't need as much rudder as is reported in documentation on takeoff - a part of the core mechanics are missing.

Edited by Cpt_Branko
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It is 2018 and I still suffer from Ki-84 ko's they are just OP!! They can perfoem everything better than anything. This is not how the Jack of All Trade works. Jack of All Trade works as long as it is Master of None. But those Ki is just Jack Of All Trades and Master of All simultaneously. It out-performs even P-51H in any circumstance. I can't do anything against him. My plane is just garbage. That plane turns climbs dives and everything at any altitude. As well as La-7 they need some serious nerf. They can perform BnZ, TnB or Energy Fighting better than anyone at once. What the hell is this. If you are well turner you can't be a diver due to Lominal Wing etc etc physics won't let you do that. 

 

 

 

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3 hours ago, AdelWolf said:

It is 2018 and I still suffer from Ki-84 ko's they are just OP!! They can perfoem everything better than anything. This is not how the Jack of All Trade works. Jack of All Trade works as long as it is Master of None. But those Ki is just Jack Of All Trades and Master of All simultaneously. It out-performs even P-51H in any circumstance. I can't do anything against him. My plane is just garbage. That plane turns climbs dives and everything at any altitude. As well as La-7 they need some serious nerf. They can perform BnZ, TnB or Energy Fighting better than anyone at once. What the hell is this. If you are well turner you can't be a diver due to Lominal Wing etc etc physics won't let you do that. 

 

 

 

 

Yeah sure aside from the fact the P-51H is nearly 100km/h faster at basically any altitude but I guess that's negligible lol.

 

It can turn well and has a lot of power which gives it good climb and acceleration as well as decent top speed.

 

The P-51D-30 (which is 0.3BR LOWER than the Ko) is 30km/h faster at 6500m and 40km/h at SL. It also keeps it's energy a lot better in a shallow climb and has better high speed control.

 

BnZ, TnB etc. are all part of energy fighting....

 

If a plane is good at generating energy it will likely excel in sustained maneuvers while others that keep energy well but take time to get it are best use in short aggressive maneuvers but without wasting too much energy in tight turns and with gentle disengagement.

 

A P-51D-30 has the speed (especially at high altitude) to evade the Ki-84 Ko. It also rolls good enough at combat speeds to try a scissor fight against the Ki-84Ko if you have altitude to burn left.

 

Never fully engage into a turnfight against a Ki-84.

 

Let's ask yourself:

 

What would you do against a Spitfire LF MK IX?

 

That thing runs 3km/h faster at SL than the Ki-84Ko, hits around the same top speed but 1km lower and climbs a lot better than the 84. Turning is slightly in favour of the Spitfire but a good 84 pilot might be able to out-maneuver a Spitfire in a prolonged fight.

 

The LF MK IX is basically the exact same plane as the Ko with the difference being that the LF climbs a lot better but the Ko can dive faster before it breaks.

 

So fight it like you would fight a Spitfire LF MK IX

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4 hours ago, AdelWolf said:

But those Ki is just Jack Of All Trades and Master of All simultaneously. It out-performs even P-51H in any circumstance. I can't do anything against him. My plane is just garbage.

Proof you are bad

 

It’s the other way around. The P-51H is the jack of all trades master of all. If you are losing to the Ki-84 then you are doing it all wrong. The H-5 is the most powerful prop in the game. It can beat a 24 Spit in a vertical turnfight. It can easily take on the Me-262 and win. I won a 1v3 against 3 MiG-9s; 2 of which were late models. I killed a MiG-15 in a proper dogfight with the D-30 and the H-5 is astronomically better so I could probably take on a Folland Gnat in the H-5 if that thing came to the game. It’s the ultimate sub/transonic fighter with impeccable maneuverability, great speed, acceleration, climb, and a 0.8 thrust to weight ratio. Imagine a 163 with a Hunter engine and 2 ADEN cannons. Honestly the H-5 could take on all of 7.0 but I know for certain that the Ki-84 no matter the variant cannot compete with 7.0 and would be hard pressed to fight even 6.7 aircraft. The reason the P-51H moved back down to 6.3 is because the pilots are too often players like you. This is why they shouldn’t have decreased the grind. Unskilled players are making it to top tier. You should side climb and save WEP for combat only. Do not use wep from 3 to 5 km of altitude. The supercharger doesn’t work there. Climb to about 8 km or 25000 ft. This is against Japan but against Germany, you will always be uptiered. Climb to 4-6 km because the jets don’t really play for altitude and they never try to climb really high. 

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On 12/07/2018 at 20:03, AdelWolf said:

It is 2018 and I still suffer from Ki-84 ko's they are just OP!! They can perfoem everything better than anything. This is not how the Jack of All Trade works. Jack of All Trade works as long as it is Master of None. But those Ki is just Jack Of All Trades and Master of All simultaneously. It out-performs even P-51H in any circumstance. I can't do anything against him. My plane is just garbage. That plane turns climbs dives and everything at any altitude. As well as La-7 they need some serious nerf. They can perform BnZ, TnB or Energy Fighting better than anyone at once. What the hell is this. If you are well turner you can't be a diver due to Lominal Wing etc etc physics won't let you do that. 

 

 

 

What?  La-7 is easy food.  Can’t say if Ki-84 is better than H-stang because

A, I don’t have it, and

B, When I play around 6.0 in my F8F, the R2Y2’s get me first.

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On 17/07/2018 at 06:16, Ska_King_Felix said:

What?  La-7 is easy food.  Can’t say if Ki-84 is better than H-stang because

A, I don’t have it, and

B, When I play around 6.0 in my F8F, the R2Y2’s get me first.

H-5 is better than the 24 Spit.

Not easier to learn or fly but better still

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On 18/07/2018 at 07:48, PickleJarOfDeath said:

H-5 is better than the 24 Spit.

Not easier to learn or fly but better still

What did I ever say about the Mk.24?

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bruh, the P-51H is pretty much the best fighter in the game. It sits at the very cusp of what any plane can hope to achieve in subsonic performance.  its climb, while slightly less than the bearcat's, is still ungodly, and it turning abilities are simply bizarre for a US fighter.  At 700kph+, that thing hairpins to the point of quick blackout.

And that's IAS

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