mrnuggets

p-51 vs ki-84 ko hayate High altitude fight

So everybody says p-51 is amazing at high altitudes, so i decided to take her up to 7500m and had a fight with a ki-84 ko and it was horrible!!!! p-51 couldn't out turn, out climb or catch up to the ki-84 ko!!! Here are the screenshots, he was higher than me by a bit but not very much, later on he came to my altitude and we had a little dogfight and he then went straight line for half an hour and i couldn't catch him. i though the ki-84s should behave like yak 3s at 7500m, shouldn't their engines be choking to death??I do not understand what is so good about the p-51 anymore, it cant climb, it cant turn, it doesn't have good speed, the only thing it can do is dive but if a fw190 is on your tail, you can just get away but you will need to waste a lot of altitude and end up being low. Energy retention is much better on many other planes and I know people keep saying "it is amazing and Aces keep complaining because they do not understand the plane". Can someone please explain how to fly this plane. Please don't tell me to run with the plane cause like I said to get away from a fw190 you expand all your altitude which you took 10 mins to get. Srsli against something like ki-84 ko what do I do? 

Edited by mrnuggets
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So everybody says p-51 is amazing at high altitudes, so i decided to take her up to 7500m and had a fight with a ki-84 ko and it was horrible!!!! p-51 couldn't out turn, out climb or catch up to the ki-84 ko!!! 

You tried just a sustained climb, which as far as I recall wasn't better than the Ki-84 unless at 8000m. The P-51 should be faster in level flight than a Ki-84 though at that altitude.

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Just take the Ki-84 into high speed maneuvers .

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Ki-84 outperformed mustangs at high altitide/ they were faster and maneuvered better.

 

Only between 16,000 ft to 20,000 ft did the Ki-84 have a speed advantage by only around 5-10 mph, other than that the P-51D is faster varying between 10-20 mph (even +30mph when up past 25,000ft) at all altitudes. Keep in mind the current FM the P-51D has is missing 250hp at all altitudes so you'll find you accelerate and climb slower than you should.

In low speed manoeuvring the Ki-84 is easily superior but not in the high speed department, and it comes down to pilot skill to determine that.

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I actually have all but given up on the P-51. I have only 8 player kills in 21 games (RB). I just don't understand how to fly it I guess. I have done very well with almost all the other energy fighters. I love my P-38G, P-47D, P-40E, F6F-3. and even the F8F-1. I have no issues with any of them, but the Mustang seems to be cursed for me. Not to mention it seems to be made of straw and gasoline because the first bullet that hits it lights it up like a match. I really want to play with the P-51-20 NA as I paid real money for it and it was the plane I originally started playing this game to fly. 

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This can be explained by the fact that the Ki-84's FM is slightly over-performing in terms of energy retention, and the P-51's FM is borked by poor energy retention and a lack of horsepower. My recommendation is that you use the XP-50 to counter Ki-84's, it has far better energy retention, climb, and turn radius.

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oh look another US brainwash propaganda victim. did you think the p51 was a god?

 

what a pity...

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No I didnt think it was god, I just thought that Japanese planes sucked at those altitudes above 6000m let alone outperform planes such as the p-51 which from the p-51 guides said it was supposed to good at high alltitudes (7500m in my case). Also I am not american and I have little interest in american things. I personally like and know a lot about the history of german and british planes. So sorry to disappoint you but not everyone who asks questions about the p-51 or other US planes are US brainwash propaganda victim. 

Edited by mrnuggets
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Just take the Ki-84 into high speed maneuvers .

I want to fight him that way but i am afraid of snapping my wings, p-51 snaps its wings way to easy. 

Edited by mrnuggets
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P-51 is slightly undermodeled(well really it's modeled with slightly lower boost settings). Because of this, it is inferior in most parameters to ki-84. Your best option is to dive and make him a target for your friends, or to make it a long chase and hope he decides to leave.

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I want to fight him that way but i am afraid of snapping my wings, p-51 snaps its wings way to easy. 

Under 600kph IAS you will not ever snap your wings due to overstress on the D-5.  The D-20 and D-30 can push this to closer to 650kph IAS, but the ease of snapping is due to how much elevator authority you have.

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Thats what gaijin calls "balance" in the game. 

You have laser-atomic-motherofgod-cmahine guns in exchange for some drop of absurd high altitude performance, where noone is fighting at all even in RB. Fair deal if you ask me. 

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It didn't historically, from what I know.

 

 

Then you wouldn't be read up on this

 

 

Japanese Planes in this game do NOT suffer from the -standard- and -universal- performance drop at high altitude that every prop fighter in the history of flight suffered. It isn't that the P-51D is underperforming (minus that it's horsepower is about 200hp lower at all altitudes than it should be, it snap rolls right not left (fail physics fail) it's that the Ki-84 simply doesn't lose anything at any altitude.

 

 

It's called busted FMs, amongst other things. And seeing how the Aerial combat in this game from Tier 1 to Tier 4 took a massive dump since tanks came it for "Game factor", nothing works correctly...

 

 

I do mean nothing.

Edited by Sakuzhi
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many aircraft don't perform as they should above 6km. the P-51 is probably one of them as it should beat the ki-84 fairly easily above 6km.

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Then you wouldn't be read up on this

 

 

Japanese Planes in this game do NOT suffer from the -standard- and -universal- performance drop at high altitude that every prop fighter in the history of flight suffered. It isn't that the P-51D is underperforming (minus that it's horsepower is about 200hp lower at all altitudes than it should be, it snap rolls right not left (fail physics fail) it's that the Ki-84 simply doesn't lose anything at any altitude.

 

 

It's called busted FMs, amongst other things. And seeing how the Aerial combat in this game from Tier 1 to Tier 4 took a massive dump since tanks came it for "Game factor", nothing works correctly...

 

 

I do mean nothing.

I realized it since then, but the turntime should still be inferior

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hmmm so ki-84 over performs at altitude and p-51 slightly under performs? np. I keep hearing p-51, fw190s, bf109s are all much more maneuverable at high speeds. I have srs trouble with this, I tried doing this and all that happened was I ended by bleeding all of my speed. Does anyone have a tutorial video on how to do this?

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In SB I prefer a descending high speed scissors to counter aircraft with better low speed manoeuvrability where you use their poor rate of roll at high speeds against them. You can either look to force them to overshoot and end up in a better position with enough energy to stay offensive or just to bleed their energy so you can gain separation and disengage. Sometimes, a rolling scissors is preferred but it's situational. Ideally, this is for the Fw-190, P-47, F4U and Tempest as they have excellent rate of roll at high speeds and doesn't work as well with the P-51.

Edited by _DK_
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Then you wouldn't be read up on this

 

It isn't that the P-51D is underperforming (minus that it's horsepower is about 200hp lower at all altitudes than it should be, it snap rolls right not left (fail physics fail)

 

 

While it's probably underperforming a bit, let's take a look at what manuals say:

- manuals for the P-51, eg, quote: "at stall the right wing drops sharply, and unless immediate recovery action is taken, a spin may develop"

- handling reports from the day, NACA reports and so on - even the XP-51 behaved like this, eg "... stall was indicated by light aileron snatching and a mild roll to the right. A slight further movement of the stick back caused a faster roll to the right..."

 

Check whether your assumptions stack up to reality before calling Gaijin or anyone "fail".

Edited by Cpt_Branko
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While it's probably underperforming a bit, let's take a look at what manuals say:

- manuals for the P-51, eg, quote: "at stall the right wing drops sharply, and unless immediate recovery action is taken, a spin may develop"

- handling reports from the day, NACA reports and so on - even the XP-51 behaved like this, eg "... stall was indicated by light aileron snatching and a mild roll to the right. A slight further movement of the stick back caused a faster roll to the right..."

 

Check whether your assumptions stack up to reality before calling Gaijin or anyone "fail".

 

 

Too bad you just like Gaijin are wrong.

 

 

http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.org/mustang/p51a-spin.pdf

 

 

Where the P-51A was observed to do "Do a Steady Spin to the LEFT..."

 

>Paragraph 4:

 

Then reinforced in terms of behavior on Paragraph 5

 

But, Wait! there's more.

 

http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.org/mustang/p-51b-6883.html

 

 

 

 Considerable right rudder and aileron is required for power on stalls and the left wing will tend to drop at the stall if the needle and ball are not centered.

 

 

Fun fact, you should ONLY read about Power-On Behavior over your demand to look at Power-off behavior, if you don't understand the purpose of this..it's due to the Engine Torque forces this plane, like every other US prop barring the P-38, I'll point out to go into a Left-wards wing drop, and thusly exhibits the "Left Roll" behavior, that the P-51 was FAMOUS for doing in Sharp turns.

 

 

But wait, there's more. btw, I don't -assume- things, I look at factual information and draw obvious conclusions from them, something worth trying out.

 

 

 

 

"Unless a dorsal fin is installed on the P-51B, P-51C and P-51D airplanes, a snap roll may result when attempting a slow roll. The horizontal stabilizer will not withstand the effects of a snap roll. To prevent recurrence, the stabilizer should be reinforced in accordance with T.O. 01-60J-18 dated 8 April 1944 and a dorsal fin should be installed. Dorsal fin kits are being made available to overseas activities"

^Known for having Spin issues, btw...this wasn't fixed into the P-51H 

 

 

 

So yes, like I said...No plane in this game is performing correctly, simply due to the FACT that German and US Aircraft will go into pronounce RIGHT Snap rolls, when -everything- written on the Aircraft in question clearly state that they will go into a LEFT Snap roll, the best part is that these aircraft will do it regardless of direction Turned.

 

 

Which if you have a sound understanding of Physics, you'd see the problem here.

 

Fact: (Go ahead and look it up) The Bf109, FW190, P51, P40, P47 all have superior left-wards (or counter-clockwise) Roll rates.

 

Fact: The Left and right Wings are generally the same shape 

 

 

Fact: The only reason that would occur is due to the Torque from the engine allowing the plane to 'Roll" markedly faster to the -left- (Seriously, go ahead and read up on it)

 

Fact: If you have a Force Directed Left-wise (Via Engine, and again prove able) opposed to right-wise (There are planes that have the engine mounted the other direction, these would be your Russian Aircraft) The Plane is going to trend to Yaw that direction at lower speeds this is obvious with a 109 when it has a -heavy- left wards torque off of the engine, if you'd fly this in SB you have to counter with the Rudder to get it to go down the run way correctly. 

 

 

Fact: In this game, the Aircraft generally have the -Correct- Handling characteristics with the forces involved while on the GROUND, however as soon as you are in the air, it is as if your engine suddenly starting to spin the opposite direction, with all the yaw habits going to the  right opposed to the left.

 

 

Fact: It USED to be to the Left, like it SHOULD still be, seriously this wasn't an issue back in 1.37 but since then all the Prop-force behavior is married only to the Russian Engine Torque opposed to everyone else's.

 

 

Here's the Facts, and Physics supports it. An aircraft that shows power-on habits to display Left-wards Torque which cause the Left Wing to drop, is going to exhibit that Torque at all times simply due to the fact that The Engine only rotates a single-prop one direction (Note I've been avoiding the P-38 comments for this reason, it has no torque as both engines cancel) So riddle me this 

 

 

How does an aircraft that has documented and proven Left-wards Torque. That shows this Torque in SB (best way to look at it) on the GROUND, suddenly have that Torque go to the RIGHT the second that it is up in the air, and for the time that it is airborne? 

 

 

Finally About the P-51 and it's "Stall" habits.. All about Left-wise forces...again this shouldn't be surprising due to the direction of the Prop.

 

 

 

 

Here's another Source clearly showing the opposite.

 

 

 

Flaps and undercarriage Up. 
Tests 1,2 and 3 
Stalling speed 92 m.p.h. A.S.I. 
There is little warning of the stall, except for the high position of the nose. The force on the control column is very light, the control column being only just aft of central. As the speed drops below 100 m.p.h. A.S.I. the aircraft becomes increasingly left wing low until at the stall about half aileron is necessary to keep level

 

 

Like I said, Power ON behavior is the ONLY behavior that you should be looking at (seriously, you took your information from the Power-off behavior of the aircraft).

 

 

 

As this is where you took your information from...Note the difference.

 

 

 

Flaps and undercarriage down. 
Tests 1,2 and 3 
Stalling speed 80 m.p.h. A.S.I. 
The control column is central at the stall, and there is no warning except that immediately before the stall a sharp shudder is felt throughout the airframe. At the stall, the nose and right wing fall fairly quickly together.

 

 

How an aircraft acts with Landing Flaps and Gear down has no-bias or meaning on how it acts while engaged in combat.

 

 

 

 

 

..4.3 Take-off. The take-off is easy and straightforward. Any tendency to swing can be readily checked by use of rudder alone. To obtain the shortest run the tail should be raised early by use of elevator and the aircraft pulled off the ground. The best flap setting for take-off was found to be 15 degrees indicated. At flap settings greater than this, there is a strong tendency to drop the left wing; full aileron is needed to check this at 30 deg. flap.

 

If you're wondering where this data came from. British Handling Trials of the P-51A mustang.

 

http://www.spitfireperformance.com/mustang/ag351handling.html

 

 

 

#BeenBustedSince1.37

 

So yeah. Next?

Edited by Sakuzhi
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I flew also the Premium P51NA in the American Tree but this was in April or May.

I flew it in RB Mode and that against N1K2´s, my only Chance was at this time to climb up to 9 000m and to dive them away.

At one Match 3 N1K2´s where chasing me from one corner to the other corner of the map. At this time the P51 wasn´t so radically nerfed like now. I don´t fly the P51 ever more not even in Arcade Mode.

So what i wanna say is that i dived the N1K2´s away from 9 000m down to 7 000m and i had over 900km/h and the N1K2´s had no chance until i went out of fuel.

One time i had around 950km/h reached and that was around 600mp/h and i had no problems to manouver with the Mustang. It felt really good in high Altittudes to fly so fast, was really exciting. But it´s over now since they nerfed the Stang. ;)s

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