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Tovarish Nope's guide to tank ammunition

I cant tell that i find Shrapnell usefull. Usual i go for AP for tanks or APHE...

apcr only on stuff like kv1 vs kv1 and ....... uhh HE for FLAK stuff.

 

It's really like flying buckshot. When the shell actually manages a full penetration, all the ball bearings fly inside the tank, thus dealing insanely high module damage. It's very hard to make use of that, I agree, but it will screw things up more than penetrating HE-frag.

 

As for the APCR part, I feel like I felt comfy with this back in them tenk sims. Completely unarmored target like an Sdkfz 222? HE to the engine or fuel tank. Armored targets? Well, I go to APHECBC most of the time, but should there be a good penetration APHE, I shall use it. APCR for me is only against targets you really cannot penetrate, since the module damage is so horrid that I can't bother to use it against light targets.

 

I'd like to add a comment on an important (I think) difference between the HE shells and the APHE shells: on HE shells the fuze is at the front while on AP rounds with a HE component it is at the back (which is necessary to have delay on the detonation.. a fuze at the front will either trigger immediately or be destroyed).

 

I think that's a smallish detail that can easily be seen on my 6 pdr APHE picture, but ok, maybe I may change that.

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I think that's a smallish detail that can easily be seen on my 6 pdr APHE picture, but ok, maybe I may change that.

 

Yeah, I just wish to emphasise it so that the idea of HE shells penetrating and then exploding doesn't spread. At least WT doesn't list a penetration value for HE shells like a certain other game so there's less likely to be people confused about it to begin with :)

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Yeah, I just wish to emphasise it so that the idea of HE shells penetrating and then exploding doesn't spread. At least WT doesn't list a penetration value for HE shells like a certain other game so there's less likely to be people confused about it to begin with :)

 

The so-called HE penetration value there is only due to the fuse not lighting up fast enough as it's not that sensitive in order to be stored safely. And no, it won't lead to HESH since a crapton of the blast energy is wasted in the air compared to HESH.

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Hi, thank you for your nice ammunition guide! I've translated it partly in german language, hope this is ok. I've linked the title to this thread. You can find the translation here.  (Subsection "Munitionsarten")

 

kind regards

Snake867

Edited by Snake867

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Hi, thank you for your nice ammunition guide! I've translated it partly in german language, hope this is ok. I've linked the title to this thread. You can find the translation here.  (Subsection "Munitionsarten")

 

kind regards

Snake867

 

I'm glad that my guide can be of any use to you. :3

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Otto Carius writes about destroying a Sherman (?) with his Jagdtiger by firing a "delayed fuze" grenade through a house in his book "Tiger's in the mud":

 

 

We advanced a few hundred meters to the south

and reached our objective. I finally recognized one enemy tank, which
drove wildly behind a house and disappeared. For once I wanted to try
out our 128-mm cannon. I took a chance and fired at the house with a
delayed fuze.
 
The result showed us the monstrous penetrating capability
of our cannon. After the second round, the American tank went up in
flames. But what benefit were the best weapons in this phase of the war!
The Yanks now came to life, of course, because someone was reaUy
shooting at them! We were Soon™™™™ in the middle of heavy artiUery fire, and
\ . the bombers appeared to "punish" us.
 
Fortunately, there were no casualties.
At the onset of darkness, we withdrew back to our old lines because
no infantry had showed up to occupy the new line. One of my assault
guns became disabled when it landed in a bomb crater.

 

...

 

Can you explain how this "delayed fuze" worked?

Edited by Trommelfeuer
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Otto Carius writes about destroying a Sherman (?) with his Jagdtiger by firing a "delayed fuze" grenade through a house in his book "Tiger's in the mud":

 

 

...

 

Can you explain how this "delayed fuze" worked?

 

 

I guess it could be a HE Shell. Like the kind available to the Panther. There is a Chapter in the "Panther Fibel" about the Sprenggranate. It could be used with Delay or without ( mV =mit Verzoegerung or oV = ohne Verzoegerung ). I'm not sure though if the Jagdtiger had access to this kind of Shells.

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Otto Carius writes about destroying a Sherman (?) with his Jagdtiger by firing a "delayed fuze" grenade through a house in his book "Tiger's in the mud":

 

 

...

 

Can you explain how this "delayed fuze" worked?

 

I can't really tell how he did it, but obviously what he did was lengthen the fuse, since a direct hit on a house would still be hard enough to trigger an explosion. That may show that the fuse of tank shells were manually adjustable (since I'm not that deep into ammo research in the first place and everything on my guide is quite basic). Another reason would be the insensitivity of the fuse, but I doubt that you could really adjust that properly in WWII.

 

However, given how T&P (time and percussion, basically multipurpose fuses that were developed in WWI designed to be either an impact or delay fuse without requiring to completely switch shells) fuses became popular in the 20th century and were heavily researched and pondered about in WWI, I think adjustable delay fuses do exist at that time as it's 30 years later, and so Carius (his loader at least), when he did that curious experiment, just so happened to make the base fuse not detonate upon impact with the house. Given the fact that the 128mm shells of the JT were structurally durable against thin layers of brick, manipulating the fuse is possibly how such an event happened. Plus since AAA shells have delay fuses, I don't know why tanks won't have access to them.

 

Yeah, that's probably it. It's a hunch based on the distance from the era of advanced fuses (WWI) and commonality, but it's my best guess.

Edited by Nope
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Thx for the detailed answer! :)

 

Plus since AAA shells have delay fuses, I don't know why tanks won't have access to them.

 

 

True, I found this in Thomas Anderson's "Tiger":

 

 

Alfred Rubbel, a veteran of sPzAbt 503, remembers that his unit never

suffered any ammunition shortages:
 
If the supply was low, we tankers helped ourselves from stocks of Luftwaffe and
Heeresflak units. Although the primers for the 8.8cm FlaK ammunition were
different, we had learned to change them. The wise Tiger tanker always had
many electric primers at hand…
 
Edited by Trommelfeuer
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Because the forums hate me posting pictures, I'm dividing this into two.

 

Explosive-based shells (near-exclusively based on explosive or shrapnel damage):

 

HE (High Explosive): It's a shell with explosive in it. It goes boom. It's extremely effective against unarmored targets with its large blast radius and damage, but usually isn't effective enough against armored tanks. However, should the shell caliber be enough, you should see frightening results upon firing high caliber HE at tanks (a KV-2 will absolutely wreck a Tiger with HE for instance). It can still damage external modules like tracks more effectively than ballistic projectiles though.

 

[spoiler]shell-fuze.jpg

 

M1A1 (M40 SPG) 155mm HE shell. Note how it's just explosive inside.[/spoiler]

 

HE-frag (High Explosive Fragmentation): Basically the same as HE, but generates more fragments in order to damage surroundings even further.

 

[spoiler]p45mmHE.jpg

 

45mm HE-frag shell. It's from the BT series of 45mms, but the exact model is unknown. Still, note the thicker walls for more lethal fragments.[/spoiler]

 

Shrapnel/Canister: Basically a live buckshot shell, either flying whole with a delay or being shot out like a shotgun. Basically an anti-personnel weapon. If it doesn't detonate, it's not that much different from AP.

 

[spoiler]BL_9.2_inch_Boxer_shrapnel_shell_diagram

 

9.2 inch (233mm) naval gun shrapnel shell. Note the ball bearings. I too am aware that this is a massive caliber shell from WWI, no worries. Oh, and note the ball bearings.[/spoiler]

 

HESH (High Explosive Squash Head): Same as HE, but the plastic explosive (since powder explosives will never be suitable for HESH since they can't be "squashed") is designed to spread upon impact before detonation, thus transferring much more of the blast to the armor, leaving less wasted blast energy in the process. HESH is therefore significantly more effective against armor than HE, and better against bunkers.

 

[spoiler]img13-1.jpg

 

105mm M58 HESH shell. Note the thin walls at the tip so that the explosive "spreads".

 

apshell.gif

 

How HESH works upon hitting a target.

 

110408_HESH_AJDABIA%20%284%29.jpg

 

Unlucky building hit by a HESH shell. :c[/spoiler]

 

Anti-concrete shell: Basically multilayered HE shells designed to penetrate concrete bunkers. Regular HE couldn't get through the armor, and AP shells don't cause enough carnage since bunkers are pretty large. So a multilayered HE shell was born for the job to penetrate the concrete and deliver a powerful blow on the inside, and while weaker than HE due to having thicker walls and less explosive, the effect was basically the same as HESH due to all the layers it has. It's mainly used by Russia and their love for howitzers, and the Sturmtiger. I think I may call them Shrek shells as they have so many layers.

 

[spoiler]anti-concrete-shells-german-ww2-q5.jpg

 

German anti-concrete shells for the 21 cm Mörser 18 and 15 cm S.F.H 18. Note all those layers in there. Just like onions. Cardboard, wood, cement, yeah, loads of stuff in there.[/spoiler]

 

HEAT (High Explosive Anti Tank): A particularly unique armor piercing shell. The shell is partially hollow with explosives inside a funnel-shaped container (mainly made out of copper due to its much lower melting point compared to steel), with the tip of the funnel being at the tip of the shell. It therefore cannot be capped. Upon hitting a target, the explosive detonates and then concentrates around that very small area, thus outright puncturing the armor. The velocity of the blast reaches hypersonic speeds and the funnel even melts and is forced to be propelled by that concentrated blast, hence the armor penetration abilities. Unlike most AP shells, it's completely independent from muzzle velocity. That's right, a HEAT shell will have the same penetration at point blank and at 2 km. However, it does not benefit from normalization at all, and since it's not capped, it tends to slide a bit on sloped armor, thus reducing penetration further.

 

[spoiler]panzerroquette11.jpg

 

Panzerschreck HEAT rocket. Note the funnel at the end. All HEAT ammunition in WWII and Korea had the same basic layout.[/spoiler]

 

 

 

-T suffix: Basically means there's a tracer on the shell, thus allowing you to see it in flight.

 

And that's all I can think of for this game for now. Feel free to suggest any other specifications you want in this guide, and I'm open to help if I can't find certain info.

 

Special thanks:

 

[spoiler]

- Tomogaso

- _Raisa_Pottgen

-  Askis

[/spoiler]

 

Impressive, most impressive...

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Added more detail about HEAT involving superplasticity. Enjoy.

 

Yes I finally figured it out to some extent go away

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So when is HEAT ammo the best choice?

 

Usually the same way one would use APCR (as in more penetration required at the cost of collateral damage), but it has worse ballistics and has problems with spaced armor. On German tanks armed with the stubby 75mm, HEAT is a very popular choice since 75mm HE does nothing.

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I'd say HEAT for rather thin armor and APCR for rather thick one. The one grants a direct kill with penetration, APCR effects at least, when all others don't really do significant damage to the tank.

Edit: wait, are we talking about hollow charges here? completely different matter...

Edited by Cyrant
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This guide is amazing. I just wish the OP or someone could take these and make a simplified quick guide to which shell types are in which tanks and in which types of shells are most effective - least effective against different tank types and armor types.

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We should have smoke rounds! This would be really useful for covering an advance/retreat or marking targets for air support.

 

We should, though I don't know what Gaijin thinks about this. I'd also like the smoke grenade dispensers to work. For instance, those tube things at the side of a Tiger I's turret are actually smoke grenade launchers from what I can remember.

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... those tube things at the side of a Tiger I's turret are actually smoke grenade launchers from what I can remember.

 

You mean the "headlamp turret blocker" replacement tubes? xD I think it's so funny they still block the traverse in the same way as the headlights did.

Gaijin: Headlight issue solved! :Ds

 

On the smoke: I think that smoke is quite a fps killer atm for smaller machines. As it is a priority for gaijin to keep the game running on older machines, I think we have to wait some time until smoke gets optimised.

I don't know if it is a priority for Gaijin to tune that, but I'd bet we won't see SM shells or SM arty before that.

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Finding something on Tokku Otsu shell is so damn hard

 

I hear you. However, I've been doing ok using the figures from the 47mm Tokko Otsu as a reference for Demarre equations. Ballistic coefficients are something else though.

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How effective is heat againt light skined and open top tanks? would a heat shell striking the open rear of a marder 3 kill the crew like a he shell would?

 

Also how effective is heat against thin skinned td's like the m10 and m18?

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