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About TLTeo

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  1. I really wouldn't know where to look for sources myself, but if you need anything translated, sure! I only suggested planes rather than versions, but so what I guess I will do is add a separate section for different versions of planes already in the game, although that won't be nearly as complete as the list of planes because there would be too much stuff to keep track of.
  2. I don't like the idea of having the G59 in game either, but I decided to add pretty much everything that could make sense, even if I don't like it. Realistically the list would be finewithout a lot of those twin engine prototypes and a bunch of older bombers like the Piaggio P.32 and P.16, but imo it's good to be impartial and let Gaijin decide.
  3. The stat card showed fairly meh performance for the G55 and G56 on the dev server, at least for planes of that tier. We will see.
  4. That captured P38 actually attacked and shot down a B17 while it was being tested at an air field near Rome. Afterwards it had to be grounded because italian gasoline was ruining the engines. It seems like Gaijin is sticking to the German side of things for now, but I can definitely see premium P38s, P39s, P47s, P51s and Spitfires being added and actually making some amount of sense since those planes were the core of the Italian Air Force before the Vampire and Sabre were introduced. @Fiat_Freccia,I remember that tree! I decided i'd only keep planes that reached prototype stage for this list, because I feel like there are enough of them as is. The only exception is the Re.2006 because it's more of a variant on an existing plane rather than something brand new. Also because it's really cool.
  5. I agree about the F4 being a little too good at 3.7, but honestly it's hard to say just by how much with the way lots of allied teams fly at that BR. All the ground strafing Hellcats and P47s set the the allied teams horribly behind from the start. That said I feel like the G2 outdoes both the F4 and the G6 (109s are my most flown planes together with 190s), but maybe I've been flying the G6 wrong. Oh and adding on to your post Bromanx, the G10 feels very similar to the G14 right now.
  6. Hold on, what???? How does the Corsair make any sense at 2.7 to 3.7? P63 at 3.7 to 4.0? P51Ds at 4.3 and 4.7? P47N at 4.7? Hellcat at 3.7? None of those belong at those BRs.
  7. Added all the recommendations so far, minus purely paper planes or prototypes that would overlap with more important production aircraft (like the G.51 vs the Re.2001 and MC.202). Thanks a lot!
  8. I have added the first batch of planes suggested by Condottiero, by I chose to ignore the Ausa MB.902 because no full prototype was built and there are enough experimental heavy fighters as is.
  9. Some versions were armed, mainly export ones. I have also seen pics of AMI G59s with guns. If I had to guess I'd say those planes were used for gunnery training because I have been unable to find any mention of their use as fighters, but other posters on this forum claim the opposite, so it's very hard to say (personally I feel like burden of proof is on them, but whatever). For completeness' sake I will add it with the rest of the planes later.
  10. I think it's safe to say that at least the stat cards are off now. According to what I saw on the first dev server, the gunpod MC.202 would have the same performance as the regular one (and it felt like that when I flew it in a test), the MC205 Orione has better performance overall than the Veltro, and the G55 has worse performance than the MC.205. I expect all those to change.
  11. Now that we have a decent idea of what the initial tech tree will look like, I have compiled a list of possible future additions with a few notes on each. I have taken production numbers from wikipedia (and from this wikipedia page) for lack of a better source. There already are threads about many of these planes, but I think it would be good to have everything in one place. I assume the final tree will be two fighter branches, one light bomber/ground attack branch, and one medium/heavy bomber branch, and possibly a float plane branch. I have included planes French and German that were flown in significant numbers, which at this point is something likely to come since we already have a 109G14 in the tree. I included jets separately, many which are already listed here. 1) Single engine fighters/fighter bombers: - Aereonatuica Umbra Trojani AUT.18: one prototype built, designed to meet the same requirement as the G50, MC200 and Re2000. - Ambrosini SAI 207: 14 pre production models built and sent to squadrons during the summer of 1943, seeing limited service. - Ambrosini SAI 403: evolution of the SAI 207 fixing several of its shortcomings, one prototype built. Evaluated and ordered into production (which never materialized) both by the Luftwaffe and Japanese Air Force - Ambrosini SS.4: one prototype built. Canard-style plane very smilar of the XP-55, first flight in 1939 (vs 1943 for the XP-55). - Caproni Vizzola F.4, F.5, F.6: the F4 and F5 were various prototypes of the same airframe fitted with different engines. One F4 prototype was built, 13 pre production F5 models were built and saw limited use as night fighters. The F6 was built in two prototypes, and it was an adaptation of the airframe to the DB605 engine. - Piaggio P.119: one prototype built; mid-fuselage engine like the P39. Designed around the same time as the 5 series fighters. - Dewotoine D.520: 60 captured planes were operated in the defense of Italy from allied bombings due to their cannon armament. - Morane-Saulnier MS.406: 25 of these were captured and operated by the Italian air force, but unlike the D.520 it's hard to find info on how much combat they saw. - Reggiane Re.2000: competitor to the G50 and MC200 and mainly flown by the Hungarian Air Force. Notably one variant was adapted for catapult usage and launched from italian battleships. - Reggiane Re.2001: competitor to the MC202, 252 built as fighters and fighter/bombers. - Reggiane Re.2002: fighter/bomber developed from Re.2001 but around a radial engine. 225 built. - Reggiane Re.2005: developement of the Re.2001 around the DB605 engine. 48 built. - Reggiane Re.2006: developement of the Re.2005 around the DB603 engine. One prototype built, but without the engine. - Caproni Ca.335: planned to be built under license and employed by the Belgian Air Force. The project was cancelled when Germany invaded Belgium. One prototype built. - IMAM Ro.41: biplane fighter contemporary of the CR32, although it did not have the same success as a fighter. Saw limited service both during the Spanish Civil War and World War 2. Used as a trainer for most of its career, retired in 1950. 743 built. - Fiat G.59: Merlin-engined G.55 built post-war or converted from existing G55's and used as a trainer by the Italian Air Force (many planes were unarmed). 91 built. Armed versions mostly exported. 2) Single or twin engine light bombers/attackers/heavy fighters (arguably the Re 2002 would go in here as well). There are lots of planes here because many projects failed to leave the prototype stage: - Caproni Ca.135: served mostly as a trainer by the Regia Aereonautica, but was used as a light bomber by the Hungarian Air Force. 140 built. - Caproni Ca.310: light bomber meant to replace the Ba.65. Like the Ba.88 it was soon phased out of front line service due to mediocre performance. 312 built. - Caproni Ca.311-313 series: developed from the Ca.310, mostly used as a recon, light ground attack and trainer aircraft on most fronts. 313 Ca.311 built, 271 Ca.313 built. - Caproni Ca.314: : final version of the Ca.31X series. Also used as a torpedo bomber. 425 built. - Caproni Ca.331: twin engine night fighter/heavy fighter, 3 prototypes built. Never mass produced despite positive opinion from pilots (including Werner Molders). - Breda Ba.201: single engine dive bomber/ground attacker, 2 prototypes built. Project likely cancelled due to the adoption of the Ju87 and later Re.2001 in the same role. - IMAM Ro.37: single engine, recon/light bomber biplane, operated on every front the RA was involved in. Would make a better reserve plane than the Ba.65. 617 built. - IMAM Ro.57: twin engine ground attack/night fighter. 50 built in two variants. - IMAM Ro.58: developement of the Ro.57 with heavier armament. One prototype built. - Savoia Marchetti SM 85: twin engine dive bomber, 34 built. Replaced by the Ju87 B and D. - Savoia Marchetti SM.88 (italian wiki with more data and pictures here: twin engine heavy fighter, one prototype built. Predecessor to the SM.92. - Savoia Marchetti SM.89: twin engine heavy fighter/ground attacker, one prototype built. Armed with twin 37 or 54 mm cannons. Developed from the SM 84 bomber, which in turn should have replaced the SM 79. - Savoia Marchetti SM.91: twin engine heavy fighter/ground attacker, two protptyoes built. - Savoia Marchetti SM.92: twin engine, twin cockpit heavy fighter, one prototype built. - Savoia Marchetti SM.93: single engine dive bomber powered by a DB605. One prototype built. - Ju87B21 and D1: several operated by the Regia Aereonautica to replace outdated or mediocre planes like the Ba 65 and 88. - Breda Ba.64: predecessor of the Ba.65, 42 built. Saw limited service during the Spanich Civil War and World War 2. - Fiat FC.12: (italian wiki with more data and pictures here): single engine ground attack plane, ten pre production models sent to operative squadrons. Originally designed as a trainer. - Cansa FC.20: twin engine ground attack plane, initially discarded. Pre production models pushed back into service in 1943. 6 built. - Fiat CR.25: twin engine bomber, initially discarded in favor of the Ba.88. Later pushed back into service as a recon plane with positive reports. 12 built. - Potez 630: 13 to 77 planes captured, no info on combat service. - Me.110: 3 C4/G4 night fighters acquired. - Do217J: 11-12 night fighters acquired. - Caproni A.P.1: single engine ground attack plane, predecessor of the Ba.65. Saw limited service during the Spanish Civil War. 34 built. 3) Medium/heavy bombers: - Caproni Ca.133: three engine fixed landing gear medium bomber. Only used as a bomber in the East Africa theatre due to its vulnerability, remained in service as a transport plane until 1948. 505 built. - CANT.Z1018: expected to replace the CANT.Z1007, the project was cancelled after the introduction of the CANTZ.1007Ter. 15 built. - Junkers Ju.88A: 46 acquired. - Loire et Olivier LeO 451: several captured, later some traded to the Luftwaffe in exchange for D.520 fighters and some were assigned to ground attack squadrons. - Savoia Marchetti SM.81: three engine, fixed landing gear medium bomber. Saw most of its service as a bomber during the Spanish Civil War; phased out of bomber duties by the SM.79 during WW2. 535 built. - Savoia Marchetti SM.82: three engine transport adapted as a heavy bomber. Retired in the 1960s from transport duties. 726 built. - Savoia Marchetti SM.84: three engine bomber, intended to replace the SM.79 but in turn it was replaced by the CantZ 1007 instead. 329 built. - Piaggio P.50: experimental four engine bomber. Three prototypes built with different engine configurations. - CMASA BGA: twin engine bomber, designed to meet the same requirement as the BR20 and SM79. Discarded after initial tests, one prototype buit. - Piaggio P.32: introduced around the same time as the BR.20, quickly retired from active service due to disappointing performance. Did not see combat. 28 built. - Piaggio P.16: contemporary of the P.32, was not ordered into mass production. One prototype built. 4) Float planes: - IMAM.Ro44: float plane biplane fighter, 35 built. - CANT.Z501: anti submarine/patrol flying boat. 454 built. - CANTZ.506: three engine maritime bomber. Replaced the CANTZ.501. 314 built. - Savoia Marchetti S.55: civilian tranport converted to maritime bomber. 25 operated. - Caproni Ca.316: twin engine float plane developed from the Ca.310 and intended to be operated from battleships. 14 built, but did not enter service. - CANT.Z511: four engine float plane, originally a civilian design but later converted as a military transport and maritime bomber. It was intended to carry up to four torpedoes or even manned torpedoes for anti shipping operations. Two prototypes built. - CANT.Z515: twin engine float plane intended for maritime use. 11 pre production models built, did not go into service. - CANT.Z508: developed from the CANT.Z501, inteded as a maritime heavy bomber. 3 pre production models built, served during WW2. - Fiat R.S.14: expected to complement the CANT.Z506, but entered service only in 1941 due to production delays. 186 built. 5) Jets: - Fiat/Macchi Vampire: various license-built version of the DeHavilland Vampire. 271 operated. - Canadair CL 13 mk.4: 179 operated. - F86K Sabre: NATO version of the F86D. 93 operated. - Republic F84F Thunderstreak: 194 operated, along with 78 unarmed RF-84F Thunderflash reconaissance planes. - Aermacchi MB326: 135 trainers and 2 ground attack G models operated. The attack models were likely only for evaluation. - Fiat G.80/82: 3 G.80 and 4 G.80 prototypes operated. Intended for training rather than combat. - Aerfer Sagittario 2: two prototypes built. Likely discared in favour of Sabres. - Aerfer Ariete: one prototype built. Likely discarded in favour of Sabres or F104s. If you have anything to add let me know!
  12. What does it even mean that P51s and P47s are all of a sudden flown better? Did Gaijin organize a secret bootcamp at Miramar for part of the player base or something? There's nothign new about those planes being club machines in the hands of a skilled pilot, just look at Bromanx's youtube channel...
  13. bf

    An update on my previous post: I have now spaded all the G models. I stand by my statement that the G6 is a goddamn brick even when spaded and the only way to get results with it is to go for overwhelming firepower, but the G14 and G10 are competitive once you get engine injection. It gets very hard if you run into competent Griffon or P47N pilot, but otherwise I like them.
  14. These claims need to stop damn it
  15. I'm not sure, there's definitely some strange stuff going on. I just checked in game, and according to the stat card the german G14's max speed is supposedly reached at 7500 meters, which is comparable to the G10's 7000. I'm sure a couple of weeks ago that altitude was reported to be ~9000 meters (I just spaded the plane), so I feel ilke they have decided Italy gets the high altitude version adn Germany gets the regular one in order to make them different. Or the stat card or naming could be wrong, who knows.
  16. 5.7 is for AB, the italian G14 is at 5.3 like the german one.
  17. 1) no more insta win for killing air field. Some bombers are an insult to sanity 2) make the stock grind less painful, possibly make research cost of the plane itself to offest for it 3) add the ability to veto maps
  18. Also the F4 was lighter than the Gustavs. That said, iirc on paper the G2 should have outperformed the F4, but it was held back by the engines not being reliable initially.
  19. I'm ok with what will be in 1.69. 30 or so planes are enough for two and a half branches, and it's quite obvious that the fourth one will be the Re fighters, with more twin engine planes to be added later on. I'd rather have this right now, with the rest to be added later, than wait another year for 15-20 more planes.
  20. I really do not think the Ba65 belongs in reserve. It flies very well and has more than twice the firepower of any other reserve plane.
  21. The G55 has better armament though. Also, the G6 at 4.7 has much worse performance than the G2, so eh. edit: also the G55S turns like a Spitfire, or at least that's how it feels right now on the Dev Server.
  22. I didn't see any on the dev server. I agree the tiering will need to be looked at, the MC205V is 3.7...
  23. Holy crap the new model of the MC 202 is gorgeous:
  24. Ah, sorry. I do not know about american 50cals, but Bredas shred now. If you can get one decent burst you are guaranteed a kill, and sometimes you can get lucky even with a shorter burst. Flying Italian fighters is a joy.
  25. Those are on the live server already.
  26. Appearently. The italian air force did fly a large number of them.
  27. Two P.108Bs were announced in the devblog
  28. Sounds like they want to implement three lines (fighters, bombers, attackers) and implement the Reggiane planes at a later date, plus probably split the bomber line in two? I'm ok with a filler 109 or two in the tree tbh, they were actually flown in large numbers so why not?
  29. So Reggiane and Caproni planes to be added at a later date along with a few float planes. Also, dev server update points at a june 2nd patch day imo.
  30. I feel like the armament shouldnt feel more powerful than a 109's though...
  31. What the hell, Bredas are ridicolous now
  32. Yes, I mentioned in the OP that the specs listed on wikipedia are from a different version. If you have the correct specs somewhere I'll add them.
  33. The Breda Ba.65 was announced on 17 May 2017 by devblog and will be included in the initial 1.69 release of the Italian tech tree: Specs according to Wikipedia (single-seat version, different from the one initially in game): General characteristics Crew: 1 Length: 9.30 m (30 ft 6.1 in) Wingspan: 12.10 m (39 ft 8.4 in) Height: 3.20 m (10 ft 6 in) Wing area: 23.5 m² (253 ft²) Empty weight: 2,400 kg (5,300 lb) Max. takeoff weight: 2,950 kg (6,500 lb) Powerplant: 1 × Fiat A.80 RC.41 radial engine, 746 kW (1,000 hp) Performance Maximum speed: 430 km/h (230 kn, 270 mph) Range: 550 km (342 mi) Service ceiling: 6,300 m (20,670 ft) Armament Guns: 2 × 12.7 mm (.50 in) Breda-SAFAT machine guns 2 × 7.7 mm (.303 in) Breda-SAFAT machine guns Bombs: 500 kg (1,102 lb) It looks like we will only get one of the early versions with the rear gunner, but some were also produced as single seaters: Meet Mario!
  34. Wooo for some reason I've always had a soft spot for the Ba 65, even though like pretty much every other ground attack plane we had in WW2 it kind of sucked. I wonder what the next ones will be. Off the top of my head the main planes that haven't been covered yet are the Re series of fighters, the MC205, the BR 20 and the SM 82...
  35. By 1943 Italy's industry was so close to collapsing (and it was terrible in the first place) that number of planes built isn't really an indication of whether a plane was tested and combat ready or not. For example, only 48 Re 2005s were ever built.
  36. Also Ki51 Sonya
  37. g.91

    Enough with the damn air to air thing: Strike aircraft means ground attack CAS aircraft, not air to air aircraft. There is NOTHING in there about air to air, especially considering that one required armament configuration was 4 50cals and the Korean War showed that the era of 50 cals was gone. I mean damn, by definition a strike aircraft is an aircraft that carries out air strikes (which means attacking ground targets).... Calling the G91 a figthter is like calling the A4, A8, F105, Jaguar, Harrier, Tornado IDS, you name it, fighters. Their job is not to shoot down other planes.
  38. Uh, interesting. I really thought only the Luftwaffe and Portugese Air Force flew the R3.
  39. 4 hard points and DEFA cannons likely make it a G91Y.
  40. We didn't have any.
  41. g.91

    I guess, but I still think it makes more sense in the attacker section because its primary mission was always ground attack. If it had been expected to do a significant amount of air to air combat it wouldn't have mounted only 4 50 cals, and it would have taken the place of F86s and F104s. Plus it was also by the Tornado IDS, which is also a ground attack plane.
  42. g.91

    This should probably be in the attacker section, the G91 was a strike aircraft, not a fighter.
  43. This just reminded me of the "Gianni, sono ottimista!" (Gianni, I'm optimistic!) commercial. It does fit flying a bomber in WT
  44. I suggest Ugo
  45. Somebody please get me a Frecce Tricolori skin for this!!!
  46. Incorrect, it was a wholly different version that only the AMI used.
  47. Yea if Italy gets the R4, Germany is going to get the R3 for sure. Also holy **** I'm so hyped!
  48. ba.88

    A more realisistic statement would be that the aircraft was too heavy for what its engines actually could produce I guess.
  49. You mean like the P51Ds are 4.3 and 4.7? :P
  50. MB326 if they want to stretch things really really far
  51. The only true naval planes we flew were a few Re 2000 modified to be launched from battleships, so I doubt it. I think it will be something like two fighter lines, one bomber line, and one attack/heavy fighter line. Italy was very lacking in that last department so I don't think it makes sense to separate the two.
  52. Other 5 series fighters will likely have to wait a while because they already showed the G55, but I wouldn't mind a Re 2001 devblog
  53. ba.88

    That is correct. They were built to keep the Breda factories busy.
  54. They are inconsistent but I don't feel they are as bad as they are portrayed. Most of the time if I get a good burst on a target, it goes down. I can only remember one game out of I don't know how many, in which I hit a Spitfire a good 10-12 times before running out of ammo and didn't even get a critical. I thought HE being called IAI instead was just a translation error?
  55. Can you provide a source for that?
  56. Nothing, it's a great plane. It just doesn't belong in the game imo because it was never meant to be flown in combat. Just like the italian versions of the G59.
  57. It absolutely was not based on the Sabre.
  58. Yea but IMO there's a difference between a rare prototype that didnt see combat because the project was cancelled (which is a fine premium), and a plane that even in war would not have seen combat because it was not designed for it in the first place. It's like asking for a T6 Texan (the actual Texan, not the Wirraway) to be added. Then again if it was up to me captured planes wouldnt be a thing either :P
  59. You are partially right, my bad. The 2-A was the export, single seat fighter version. The 4-A was an italian single seat version fitted with a bubble canopy, and again, it was used as a trainer. These were newly built planes, while G59 1s were converted G55s. I'm sure that some of them had guns mounted in the wings (as shown by those pictures), but again, they were not used as fighters along with P51s and P47s (at least, I can not find a source that states that, maybe I'm wrong). Showing a picture of a G59 does not prove that it was used as a fighter, even if weapons are clearly visible.
  60. The white cross is a symbol of the old italian royal family:
  61. ba.88

    As mediocre as the Ba88 was, WT does have other planes that in the war performed almost as horribly. TBD Devastators got completely butchered at Midway, the F2A-3 was so horribly overweight it couldn't perform loops (or so I read somewhere, can't remember where sorry!), the Me 163 did more damage to its pilots than to B17 squadrons, the Ta 154 production was cancelled because the production models performed much worse than the prototypes.... Part of the fun of the game is to have a few odd ball planes and wonder what would have happened to those machines in better conditions. If the Ba 88's engines had consistently performed up to specifications and the plane wasn't as overloaded with military equipment (afaik the ones that couldn't take off were supposed to carry a 1000 kg payload, which is not included in the game), things could have gone differently, who knows. After all, on paper the plane's specs (assuming the engines perform properly) are very comparable to a 110.
  62. 109 G-2

    The only difference between regular and night ammo is that in the night belt the tracers aren't as bright; the goal was to preserve a pilot's night vision. The weapon effectiveness shouldn't change.
  63. Also, those were the first fighters to be equipped with cannons, minus a handful of Re 2001 used as night fighters and some experimental MC202s (or just one? I can't remember) that carried gun pods. Until the 5 series the standard armament was 2 50cal Breda-SAFATs, sometimes with two additional 30 cals or more rarely two more 50cals in gun pods. We also had a few ground attack twin engine planes that used MG151/20s, but those were much fewer in number compared to single engine fighters/fighter bombers and light/medium bombers.
  64. Thanks a lot, that's exactly what I was looking for
  65. I know they don't do much damage, I'm just wondering how accurate that small amount of damage is.
  66. I think the first SM79 is ok, the later ones I only fly for hilarity. The fighters are pretty good even with mediocre armament, and the MC202 is extremely good. By the way, what is wrong exactly with Breda guns ingame? Is it just hit detection (so more of a coding issue), or are they just not modelled correctly for whatever reason?
  67. Out of every plane to receive a devblog, the Ba 88 would not have been my first choice. I was expecting something capable of taking off
  68. None of which were flown by the italian air force. Those were export models.
  69. ba.88

    The devblog video shows the plane rolling rather quickly actually. I expected it to be much more sluggish honestly.
  70. We only had the ADV (plus a few F16s) as a stop gap between retiring our F104s and getting Typhoons though. Those ADV were originally British. I meant we (mostly) fly the IDS version.
  71. bf

    I'm trying to spade the G6 and it's the most painful experience ever. The damn thing is an overweight brick with no agility and perfomance that's comparable to or worse than an F4, except you get to fly against LF mk IXs. I feel like the only way I'll ever get results from the damn thing is by mounting gun pods, going head on with everything I see, and praying to get results like that.
  72. The G91 was always meant as a ground attack plane rather than a fighter. During that same period Italy flew F86s and later F104s as our main fighters, just like currently we fly Typhoons along with Tornados IDVs (the ground attack version) and AMXs.