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Skyguy7567

I-185: A plane that failed horribly

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Didn't they do the same thing with the MiG-15, saying it was original MiG-15 even though it was performing like the bis. And when confronted with test results, they still refused to acknowledge that it performed like the bis till some time later when they changed the name to MiG-15bis and added the MiG-15.

Edited by bigt4203

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That first video was the most annoying thing I have seen this year.

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A confrontation with the plane in game would solely dictate the results: it will shoot you down.
Once I was in a Bf109 F4, and found him climbing up while I was diving down to get to the rest of the pack. Was chasing a bomber in 6k and my F4 is fully upgraded. The I spot him and decided to change and climb up. To my surprise, he was still chatching up with me, AFTER CLIMBING to 4k where I spotted him, and I had 500IAS. I quickly did a 90 degree and rushed under cloud cover. He noticed it and came after, I climbed, and to my surprise he was magically doing a headon, while I am diving and he was climbing at 25 degrees. He missed, as I dodged it, and he tuned around. TO MY ABSOLUTE SURPRISE, he was STILL catching up, closing in 700m. I made sure that no flaps, gear or anything that will slow me down is deployed. Then a vertical dive down to the ground. What BS is the OP energy retention? Germans have way better dive and climb speed. The M-82 was not superior to German engines. You ever see a La-UFO doing that with the same M-82? It tuned like a zero and outdove a I-185 while still retaining energy after turning? Physically impossible, also given that the I-185 wasn't really made as streamlined as a bomb.

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A confrontation with the plane in game would solely dictate the results: it will shoot you down.
Once I was in a Bf109 F4, and found him climbing up while I was diving down to get to the rest of the pack. Was chasing a bomber in 6k and my F4 is fully upgraded. The I spot him and decided to change and climb up. To my surprise, he was still chatching up with me, AFTER CLIMBING to 4k where I spotted him, and I had 500IAS. I quickly did a 90 degree and rushed under cloud cover. He noticed it and came after, I climbed, and to my surprise he was magically doing a headon, while I am diving and he was climbing at 25 degrees. He missed, as I dodged it, and he tuned around. TO MY ABSOLUTE SURPRISE, he was STILL catching up, closing in 700m. I made sure that no flaps, gear or anything that will slow me down is deployed. Then a vertical dive down to the ground. What BS is the OP energy retention? Germans have way better dive and climb speed. The M-82 was not superior to German engines. You ever see a La-UFO doing that with the same M-82? It tuned like a zero and outdove a I-185 while still retaining energy after turning? Physically impossible, also given that the I-185 wasn't really made as streamlined as a bomb.

 

Yep... the I-185 is reminding me of the old pre-1.29 nerfs La-5FN; completely broken UFO.

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This plane is declared UFO it shot me down in my D-13 I was not turning. He did some xxxx turns and then negated 2 KM like nothing.

 

The relevant part bolded, italized and underlined.

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At this point, it will be a pleasant surprise if they introduced a new Russian plane that wasn't completely over-preforming in every way imaginable.

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Last time I checked this a simply a game. You guys and wanting it historically accurate need to really relax and enjoy the game for what it is. You can't relive ww2 here sorry.

But that's why many play WT. I wouldn't be happy if a Nissan Micra out ran and out cornered a Ferrari F40 in Gran Turismo, even though it's just a game. 

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Are you really comparing AB performance to real life one? In AB everything climbs ridiculously fast, even compared to RB!

Yeah but the Arcade buff for Russians is much higher than other countries, especially USA.

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I think US planes are the only planes in the game where they get better when you turn them off arcade mode. Like for example, it might have been one of the Corsairs or P-51s, If you start from arcade and turn it to simulation battles, it loses a negligible amount of speed, think in the area of 7mph, and gains 2.1 climb rate.

 

I am not debating whether or not which mode has the accurate stat card, or even if the stat cards are even right. I just don't think every nation is arcade boosted in the same areas, or even in areas that would put them on par with one another. Russians and Brits get climb speed and turn boosts, Germany and US just get top speed boosts? Like honestly, wtf? Anyway, this is all based on those stat card changes being correct, if they aren't and are just graphical bugs, then just ignore this post.

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Correct; Stat cards don't mean anything. If you want to test differences, do actual flight tests.

Edited by Nabutso

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Yes there is. Some, at least. Now, if only the I-185 we had in game was actually the M-82 version...

Crouching Walrus did a video on the I-185, and right now it's performing like the up-engined version M-71 version. You can see his review here.

Though, frankly, I'm more annoyed with the I-185's tier than I am that a "prototype" or "near-prototype" is in the tree. I'm perfectly fine with prototypes, but a 3x20mm nose-mounted plane that's overperforming most obviously on RoC (as demonstrated in that video) that out-turns 109s/190s (the primary competition for such a heavily armed plane) is just kinda silly. I'd argue overpowered based on what I've seen my friends do in it, but it's just a disgusting plane to see in action. I'll reserve full judgement until I've actually used the plane, though.


Yep, before you restart your technical blabbering, it must be said that on this tier and with this Battle rating, it's just borderline OP. I had no problems going on some of the highest killstreaks i everhad with this plane and that was when it was not maxed out. Therefore now i mainly use it to punish Yertards...

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The I-185 was actually better than the la5. But because the la5 used the LaGG-3 airframe and the fact Polikarpov fell out of political favor with Stalin ( that was a huge deal in the USSR btw) it was not produced.

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Yep, before you restart your technical blabbering, it must be said that on this tier and with this Battle rating, it's just borderline OP. I had no problems going on some of the highest killstreaks i everhad with this plane and that was when it was not maxed out. Therefore now i mainly use it to punish Yertards...

 

Part of the problem is that it doesn't just stick to that tier. I get put up against them all the time in my Tier II lineup. In Tier III around 4.0 BR it might just be borderline OP, but in Tier II at 3.3 BR it's fking mental.

Edited by Chihayaburu

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[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X4APrZ8OaYI[/media]

Been watching these guys do high speed loops and all sort of unbelievable nonsense like diving STRAIGHT down and then STRAIGHT back up without losing speed since this plane was introduced. No G forces modeled is right, half of my american planes cannot roll.. period. They just can't. So why is it the Russian planes never seem to suffer from physics but mine do?

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Been watching these guys do high speed loops and all sort of unbelievable nonsense like diving STRAIGHT down and then STRAIGHT back up without losing speed since this plane was introduced. No G forces modeled is right, half of my american planes cannot roll.. period. They just can't. So why is it the Russian planes never seem to suffer from physics but mine do?

A video showing that the deflection of the elevator is reduced as you approach high speeds is NOT proof for you that it has control stiffening?

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Been watching these guys do high speed loops and all sort of unbelievable nonsense like diving STRAIGHT down and then STRAIGHT back up without losing speed since this plane was introduced. No G forces modeled is right, half of my american planes cannot roll.. period. They just can't. So why is it the Russian planes never seem to suffer from physics but mine do?

Because Gaijin is staffed entirely by robots powered by tears.

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Yeah but the Arcade buff for Russians is much higher than other countries, especially USA.

 

The Arcade Buff really has no consistency whatsoever.  The major buffs are in dive speed, G tolerance, and control surface lock up.  More to the point, a Zero can dive at 800kph IAS and then do a 4 second 360 loop at 18+ Gs.  The plane couldn't survive double digit, nevermind something that would nearly turn a human brain from a Pudding-like consistency to soup.

 

The control surface lockup also affects planes that performed bad at high speeds.  That A6M?  Yeah, it couldn't even pull up that well once it got above 370kph IAS (it certainly wouldn't pull a threatening G load).  Its control surface stiffening at high speed is what led to planes like the F4F and F6F to outmaneuver the A6M at high speed.  The F6F being significantly up-engined compared to the F4F allowed the F6F to secure a major maneuverability advantage over the aging A6M since it could actually maintain the speeds where it dominated a Zero in aerial combat (by comparison to the underpowered F4F which, while maneuverable even compared to maneuverable planes, was completely underpowered for what it was capable of.  Naturally, not as maneuverable as Japanese planes, however).

 

A more recent "discovery" (really, I just quantified it finally) is the effect of WEP and Drag on the flight model in the arcade buff.  Planes that couldn't accelerate as well as specific other planes (such as the Bf 109 and Fw 190 versus the P-47 or P-51, both of which completely trounced their German counterparts in a dive contest to the point that it was a valid and effective defensive maneuver) are all-but matched if not exceeded by other planes.  The 109 G-6, for instance, will accelerate in a dive slightly slower than a P-51D will, enough to gain 100m in about the time of a full WEP's duration at pretty much any angle.  Point the P-51 straight down and you literally can't notice the G-6 breaking away.

 

Then you have ghost energy retention which I'm certain has something to do with bogus thrust and WEP on the planes, and a plane like the 109G (unknown model number), which is known in numerous sources to be out-turned (no gunpods) by the P-51 with ease, can out-turn and maintain better energy to a plane outright superior to it in every way except firepower and rate of climb at various ranges (though largely similar all the same) and it starts to get really screwy how the arcade boosting affects planes.

 

Specifically, on a German plane, they gain superior energy retention, acceleration, and climb rates.  Their climb rates are so insane that I estimate that the G-2 with WEP is handily breaking 30m/s climb rate, possibly pushing 40, just doing a 250kph IAS climb in arcade.  The P-51 when you eek out every bit of performance from the plane barely can break 26 m/s due to its severely screwed over thrust, WEP, lift, and so forth.  But if you compare these planes under HB/RB settings, while the 109 will still outclimb the P-51 as it historically did, the P-51 isn't so completely and utterly outclassed as to be incapable of fighting the 109 (though the 109s in the past "outclassed" the P-51 by 1-2KM of altitude, which is pretty much a game-winning energy advantage if all skill is equal between the 2 pilots, but at least the 109 has a lower max speed and suffers other issues in RB/SB that it doesn't in AB!)

 

In effect, between the thrust, lift, drag, G-force tolerance, and general lack of elevator lock up, you see planes known for capitalizing on low-drag designs being screwed over, planes with historically strong WEPs becoming god-like, planes with strong turnfight capabilities becoming even more so, and it leads to an absolutely schizophrenic mess of balance.

 

Why can an Il-2 snap-turn as well as a zero even if it can't maintain it?  Why can a 109 or 190 out-dive a P-51 ever?  Why can a Zero keep up with a 190 in a dive?  Why can a spitfire for that matter?  You see planes doing things they historically just could not do all the time.  When combined with the lead indicator giving an undue advantage to cannons due to their broken-high damage values and the ability to aim at planes "reliably" up to 750m out, and you can see how arcade's very principles are selectively screwing over specific designs of planes while others don't notice it.

 

For instance, the P-47 was in many respects superior to the Typhoon in things such as turning, diving, and so forth.  But, in game, the Typhoon outright trounces the P-47 in arcade in pretty much every situation because 0.30s are stronger than 0.50s for some reason, the plane has better acceleration (thrust), the typhoon can turn sharper (despite the P-47 being slightly superior to a typhoon in real life, but only just and not by enough to call it outright superior) and so on and so forth.

 

It turns out that, in arcade, only one nation is really screwed over by the flight model buffs, and it's the US line.  0.50s are the most affected by damage model boosts with the weird accuracy and hit detection of arcade and this game respectively.  US planes are the most affected by not having best-in-class thrust.  They're the most affected by not having their WEP boosted to nearly the same levels as German planes (their nearest competition).  They're the most affected by planes being able to dive well beyond their structural or engineering limits (or what they can safely pull out of!).  They're the most affected in every category because US planes squarely exist in an area that planes didn't get boosted.  They made high-speed high-maneuver (for the speed) planes that could reliably hold that energy at those speeds and out-turn their competition at those speeds.  If their competition didn't hit those speeds then they could safely energy fight using boom and zoom tactics.  If their competition did, they could outright outmaneuver them.  But in arcade, you don't see that because people turn so tightly that speeds drop so fast that US planes drop below their critical maneuvering speeds before their weak 0.50s can down most planes (most obviously seen after tier 5, now with the recent downtiering of the F6F, F4U, and so on).

 

But turn fighters?  Stronger WEP and tighter turns are good for them.  German planes?  stronger WEP and less drag is good for them since they benefit hugely from both (while US planes barely see any from a drag decrease).  Being able to turn tighter is a bonus, but these planes are horrible at turn fighting to begin with (as they historically were throughout the major models).  Energy fighters?  Yeah, nothing.

 

It's sort of a quasi mixed-relationship thing where boom and zoomers with terrible (relative) energy retention are turned into masterful energy fighters with unparalleled climb ability, turn fighters turn into climbers with superior dive and turning characteristics in most speeds (though still have limited rates of roll), and energy fighters that used to hold energy masterfully can't actually hold that advantage because everything else, both turn and boom fighters (or hybrids thereof) have the capability of quite literally climbing up to an energy fighter and either leaching it of energy better than the energy fighter will them (easiest to see in a P-51 versus a 109 duel) or by instantly hitting the altitude and matching speed with them while they're climbing to then catch up and guarantee a kill on a target that up to 5 seconds ago had a superior energy advantage.  This is easiest to see with 109s or spitfires climbing on US planes already at altitude.  It's so bad that I've seen spitfires do snap 180s on a P-51 they passed under them and instantly normalized speed with the P-51 not even 500m away from the target, well within an effective kill box for arcade with cannons.

 

In effect, the arcade flight model really doesn't have a russian bias.  At worst it has a largely anti-US bias with a slight pro-German bias (109 F-4->K-4, 190->Ta 152) just due to the nature of boom and zoom and just how much those planes gain in those tiers compared to almost every counterpart.

 

This problem is so prolific to arcade that it makes it fundamentally impossible to determine whether US planes are actually underperforming or if the arcade flight model is just giving way too many diminished returns to a certain style of plane while giving way too many bonuses to planes that shouldn't be getting boosted nearly as much.  While I apologize for turning this into a "Buff US" themed post, that's basically what the arcade FM is doing, and one of the primary reason why I advocate more limitations in arcade to help bring US planes to parity instead of pushing for fantasy buffs or tiering.  At this rate, the P-51 will eventually end up as a tier 8 plane across from the Bf 109 and the US won't have a single solid plane between tier 8 and 16 when the F8F-1B finally comes into play to help give the US some parity with a flight model that is known underperforming.

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Yeah, Americans. I would write such post but no time...

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